A Conversation with Don Burgess, ASC

by Bob Fisher

Don Burgess, ASC was born in Santa Monica, California and was raised in the Pacific Palisades. His dad was a building contractor and a 16 mm hobbyist, who took frequent movies of his son and other neighborhood skateboarders and set them to music. Burgess began shooting Super 8 skiing and surfing movies in high school and he focused on cinematography at the Los Angeles Arts College Center College of Design. He was still a student in 1976 when he worked as an assistant cameraman on the second unit crew for the William Friedkin thriller Sorcerer.

Burgess leveraged his athletic skills while shooting documentaries. The subjects ranged from mountain climbing in the Amazon to camels in the Australian outback, sharks off the coast of Catalina Island, and athletes training for the Olympic games at Sarajevo. He earned his first narrative credit at the age of 23 for a low budget film called Ruckus. Burgess followed up with a series of other low budget and cable TV movies. He won a Cable Ace Award for Breaking Point in 1989 and an Outstanding Achievement Award nomination from the American Society of Cinematographers the following year for The Court-Martial of Jackie Robinson.

Burgess was the second unit cinematographer for Back to the Future Part Two, Back Draft, The Rookie, Batman Returns and Death Becomes Her during the early 1990s. His cinematography earned Oscar and ASC Outstanding Achievement Award nominations for Forrest Gump in 1994. His subsequent feature credits include Richie Rich, Contact, What Lies Beneath, Cast Away, Spider-Man, Terminator 3: The Rise of the Machines, Radio, The Polar Express, 13 Going On 30 and Christmas With the Kranks. Burgess is currently working on Antarctica.

Following are excerpts of a conversation:

QUESTION: Is it true that you are one of those rare Los Angeles natives?

BURGESS: I was born in Santa Monica and was raised in Pacific Palisades where my father was a contractor. I helped him build swimming pools when I was a teenager. He was a hobbyist who shot 16 mm home movies of us doing the usual family things, including my friends and I skateboarding. We would edit the movies together and show them at the local recreation center. That was my first association with any kind of filmmaking. It was purely splicing Kodachrome 16 mm film and putting it together the latest California surfing music.

QUESTION: Did you ever get to shoot the film?

BURGESS: No, I didn't shoot at all. I was the skateboarder. My sister was a few years older. She took a high school still photography class and had her own darkroom at home. I became fascinated with developing black-and-white negative and making prints. I'll never forget the first time the image came up in the developer. When I got to high school, I took the photography class and started fooling around with a Super 8 camera. Me and some other kids were shooting skiing and surfing movies. We'd cut and put them to music and show them to our friends. Pretty soon, we were showing them in the auditorium, and we were getting crowds cheering and laughing. Up to that point, I thought I was going to be an architect, but I didn't make it past the second semester of drafting. I found I'm not the type of person who can sit at a desk or a drafting table. I decided to go to film school and pursue cinematography as a career.

QUESTION: Were you a movie fan?

BURGESS: I was a big fan of Steve McQueen's and Robert Redford's films like Downhill Racer. A family friend named Johnny Stephens was a cinematographer. I remember watching him shoot racecars with remote controlled cameras on the Grand Prix second unit. I was really impressed that he was making a living doing this doing fantastic work. In 1976, after I finished my first year of film school, he took me to the Dominican Republic as his assistant cameraman on the second unit for William Friedkin's film Sorcerer.

QUESTION: What a great opportunity. Where were you going to film school?

BURGESS: I went to film school at the Los Angeles Arts Center College of Design. That was before it moved to Pasadena. I had looked at several film schools and it was the best fit. It kind of felt like home. The college was in a residential neighborhood, and it wasn't really structured like a school. I was accepted after showing them a film I had made in high school. I graduated from there, but it took a long time, because I would go to school for a while, and then I would go out and work on a film. I think it took around six years.

QUESTION: I'm curious. What film did you show them?

BURGESS: It was a Super 8 ski movie that I shot at Mammoth Mountain in California. Johnny Stephens had done some skiing cinematography, so I decided I could do that. I rented a camera, went up the mountain and skied backwards while filming some of my friends doing flips and other tricks. I cut it to music. Everybody has different reasons for wanting to make films. At the time, for me it was all about photography. It wasn't that I felt I had great stories to tell. It was more about the imagery that I loved putting up on the screen. There weren't a lot of people who were capable of repelling off mountains, skiing backwards and going underwater with motion picture cameras. That was a way I could find work and ultimately finish school. By the time I graduated, I had a better idea of how to use lenses and light to tell stories.

QUESTION: How did they teach at Art Center? Was it practical or theoretical?

BURGESS: It was a four-year program. The lower division was more about art design. We learned everything from the principles of drawing to what was probably the best lighting class I've ever had. We studied lighting from the perspective of how to use it to create shapes. In retrospect that class was very useful, but I remember being very frustrated, because all I really wanted to do was grab a camera and shoot movie film. Now, looking back, I learned things that I needed to learn. I remember a documentary I made about a police officer who was transferred out of the area. Everybody at the time felt that a councilman had something to do with him being transferred because he promoted ideas that were against the councilman's opinion. I had a friend at Cal Arts, who had access to great equipment. They had the best cameras and they had flat bed editing machines. He got the cameras and I went to my parents to beg and borrow money for the film. We made this documentary about this police officer. I couldn't show it at my school, because I wasn't at a high enough level to be shooting a 16 mm film. Eventually, after I took some more classes, I was allowed to show my film.

QUESTION: Were there people at the school who influenced you?

BURGESS: My sound teacher was "Buzz" Knudsen who worked at Todd-AO. He had numerous Academy Awards. We had all kinds of industry professionals teaching classes. They taught me there is more to filmmaking than cinematography. It's all about storytelling and teamwork. One of the teachers I learned that from was Mike Ahnemann. By the time I got out of school I had a lot of connections in the industry because my teachers were filmmakers.

QUESTION: So, you were working and going to school at the same time?

BURGESS: Yes. When I finished working on The Sorcerer, I went back to Art Center. They had a guest lecturer named Mike Hoover, who showed us a film about the bi-centennial climb of Mt. Everest. I thought, wow, what a fantastic way to make a living. I bothered him until he eventually gave me a job making documentaries. What a great lesson in filmmaking it was when we went to the Amazon jungle and climbed a 2,000-foot high vertical mountain. I remember hanging off the side of this mountain with the rain pouring. I was kind of huddled up.

QUESTION: Had you ever done anything like that before?

BURGESS: I've never climbed before, and I had never been on the side of a mountain like that before. I remember Mike Hoover saying, 'Get the camera out because if we don't shoot this, it will be like it never happened.' I also remember thinking, how do we get this part, my feelings, into the story? Whether it's a documentary or a feature, the toughest thing is capturing that moment.

QUESTION: Did you do a lot of documentary filmmaking?

BURGESS: I was involved in documentary filmmaking for probably a good 10 years.

QUESTION: Where were some of the other memorable places that took you?

BURGESS: I went to Australia and shot In Search of the Wild Camels in the Outback. I filmed Sharks for National Geographic off the west end of Catalina. I also did a lot of sports documentaries about professional and Olympics athletes. I can't even tell you how many profiles I've shot of athletes around the world. In 1983, I was in Sarajevo for a month. I did a lot of filming with the athletes who were competing in the Olympics the following year. I did action footage with the skiers and other athletes and profiles of Jackie Joiner and that whole group of athletes. I think that experience really helped me, because at a certain point you realize you can walk into any situation and not be terrified about how you are going to shoot it. You really learn how to think on your feet. I spent a lot of time in the editing room after I shot profiles. That was a great lesson. In the beginning, I was probably using 20 rolls of 16 mm film to shoot each profile. By the end, I would shoot them in eight to 10 rolls. That came from the experience of sitting in an editing room and realizing what's important and what's not. I began to learn to make those choices as I was shooting. Once you know how to think in terms of what you need to tell the story you become more efficient at the use of shooting time.

QUESTION: I presume getting into the camera guild was a non-issue?

BURGESS: When I started out, I tried to get into every studio camera department as a loader. I had worked on The Sorcerer in the Dominican Republic, so the hours didn't count. I tried to get into the Guild for 10 years. It was probably the best thing that ever happened to me in a way, because I was able to keep shooting while I was trying to get into the union. I became a director of photography at the age of 23, and was shooting low budget independent and cable movies. I was also doing second units on some bigger budget films.

QUESTION: How did you make the connection with low budget film directors?

BURGESS: Max Kleven was one of the best second unit directors in the business at the time. In 1980, he was doing a show for NBC about stuntmen. It was called Superstunt II. There was a tape crew set up to do this show in one-inch format. The backgrounds were all film. He needed someone who could shoot slow-motion shots of stuntmen falling off horses and that sort of thing. By chance, I had shot a ski movie at Art Center with a guy by the name of Tony Jefferson, who wanted to be a stuntman. He introduced me to Max and I showed him my film. Max said, 'I need a guy who's kind of handy, so why don't you come along with us on this show, and let's see what you can do. I rented a 35 mm ARRIFLEX camera with a high-speed motor and started shooting for Max Kleven. They were transferring the film to tape with one of the first Rank Cintel telecines in Los Angeles. Bill Hogan and Ron Stutzman ran it. You could get really gorgeous images off 16 mm negative. I also proved that it was much easier to shoot 16 mm film then to run around with those one-inch videotape cameras and it looked better in the end. I remember people telling me that I had better learn how to operate those tape cameras because film is dying. That was over 30 years ago, and they're still saying the same thing today.

QUESTION: How did you transition to shooting low budget films?

BURGESS: The first movie I shot was Ruckus (around 1982). It was directed by Max Kleven. We had about a million-dollar budget, and it was eventually released by New World. After that, I did a number of other low budget films, including Summer Camp Nightmare and The Night Stalker with Max. By the late 1980s, I was shooting cable movies, including Too Young the Hero, Breaking Point, and The Court-Martial of Jackie Robinson.

QUESTION: You were also shooting commercials. How did that happen?

BURGESS: I started shooting commercials in film school. There was a group called The Public Advertising Council. We produced, directed, wrote and shot public service commercials for them. I remember commercials about single parent adoptions, handgun control and wheelchair access. None of us got paid other than a few bucks to cover costs, but it was a great opportunity that ultimately led to other work. I've done commercials throughout my career. I'm still shooting them. For one thing, commercials give you the ability to wait for better scripts. They also give you an opportunity to experiment and try different things.

QUESTION: You mentioned you met Robert Zemeckis through Max Kleven. How did that happen?

BURGESS: Max was the second unit director on Back to the Future Part Two (in 1989), and he asked me to shoot for him. By that point I had gotten into the Guild. I did a lot of second unit work after that. Max introduced me to Zemeckis.

QUESTION: How did you finally get into the Guild?

BURGESS: There was a TV series that started out non-union and was organized after we began shooting. It was called, Something is Out There, and it was on NBC on Friday nights. Unfortunately, there was nothing out there in the way of an audience, so it was cancelled after about 10 episodes, but it did get all of us into the union. I got in as a director of photography.

QUESTION: How did you get an opportunity to shoot bigger budget features?

BURGESS: I was shooting cable and independent movies. I took the gamble of going back to doing second units on bigger pictures hoping to meet directors who I could work with in the future. The gamble was that people want to type cast you and put you in categories. If you're the second unit cameraman, there is a presumption you don't know how to light and or how to tell stories, which of course isn't true. I did second units on Back to the Future Part Two, Backdraft, The Rookie, Batman Returns, Death Becomes Her and for various other films.

Bob Zemeckis decided he wanted me to shoot one of his pictures. That's what it takes-someone who is willing to stick their neck out for you. That has happened periodically throughout my career going all the way back to the beginning with Johnny Stevens and then with Max Kleven. I didn't have the resume to do those jobs, but they relied on their instincts. I think Zemeckis took a big gamble by asking me to shoot Forrest Gump. You don't get chances on those kinds of studio movies unless the director has that kind of clout. Fortunately, I had a relationship with Bob from second units on Back to the Future and Death Becomes Her.

QUESTION: When you were doing second unit work, there were some very impressive cinematographers on first unit, including Dean Cundey (ASC) on Back to the Future Part Two and Mikael Salomon (ASC) on Backdraft. Did you get to know them?

BURGESS: Sure. They were good experiences. I also got to work with some wonderful directors on TV movies who helped me prepare for the future. I worked with Larry Peerce on The Court-Martial of Jackie Robinson and with Buzz Kulik on Too Young the Hero. Mo Money was a comedy that Peter MacDonald directed He was a cinematographer and legendary camera operator who became a director.

QUESTION: Was Forrest Gump was your first big budget movie?

BURGESS: Forrest Gump was the first big budget film that I shot. I was 35 years old. When Bob (Zemeckis) called and asked me what I thought about the script, it was one of those moments that can change your life. I was as honest as I could be about how I felt about the script, and what I thought we should do with it. He asked me to shoot his Tales from the Crypt TV episode, "Yellow", which was about seven to maybe 10 days of work. At the same time, I had been offered a four-month miniseries with a very good director. I had three little kids, no money in the bank, and I had to turn down four months of a miniseries to work seven to 10 days with Bob. Decisions like that take the support of your family, especially my wife. I turned down the miniseries even though I had no other work lined up. You make those choices along the way.

QUESTION: That couldn't have been an easy decision.

BURGESS: They are all hard decisions, because this is a freelance business. There's no steady work. You're always looking for your next job. Nobody is booked years in advance. Pictures are only green lit right before they go. People talk with you about movies they want you to shoot, and they have the script for you to read. They'll tell you they want you to shoot it next summer. You say, 'I'd love to do it,' but you know that the chance of that picture being made is probably slim. You are always trying to find the best material and trying to make a living at the same time. It's a very difficult, complicated thing to do, especially when you're raising a family. I think I've been very fortunate. If it ended today, I think I've had one hell of a career, but in my own mind, there is a lot more to come and my best work is still ahead of me.

QUESTION: Was there a particular scene in Forrest Gump that sets the tone for the story?

BURGESS: One of my favorite shots is when Gump is a soldier marching through the rain. At the end of that shot, the rain stops falling and the sun comes out. It's a beautiful day and then all hell breaks loose. Tracer fire suddenly goes over his head. Gump hits the ground and he rolls into a ditch. We did it all in one shot. It began with a very passive camera move, tracking along with Gump as he was marching through the rain. The rain stopped, the sun came out and life was great until all hell broke loose, and we followed him rolling into the ditch. The camera was mounted on a Steadicam on a dolly that was tracking with the character while he was walking. We wanted it as smooth and steady as possible. When the enemy started firing and Gump hit the deck, camera operator Chris Squires jumped off of the dolly and followed him into the ditch. Then, it became an over the shoulder shot looking towards the enemy. You only see flashes of weapons from the point of view of the character. You don't actually see the enemy. The movement of the camera was significant because it allowed the audience to experience the chaotic situation. They become part of that scene because of the way we used the camera.

QUESTION: Will you tell us about the use of the GPS (geographic positioning system) on that film? I never heard of that before.

BURGESS: Before we built Gump's house I used a satellite navigation system to determine what the angle was going to be at different times on the days when we were shooting there. They built the house on a spot that was exactly right for the position of the sun when we were going to be shooting key scenes. With the GPS you log in exactly where you are on the planet, and that allows you to figure out the angle of the sun in 15-minute increments. We didn't use it on every shot. It was just on those scenes where we wanted the images to be perfect with the sun in exactly the right place. It was especially important when we were matching live action with archival footage use to establish the place and period.

QUESTION: Did you know that it was going to be a phenomenal success?

BURGESS: I was very excited about the script. I think it was better than the book, and the movie is better than the script. It's just one of those fortunate things that ended up in the right director's with the right stars. Zemeckis inspired all of us to do our best work. By the middle of production, we all knew we were making something special. Just watching the dailies was inspiring every day. I wrote a letter to my mother halfway through the film, saying 'thank you for my life and for the opportunity to go to school and study filmmaking. Thank you for pushing me in the direction I wanted to go instead of staying in the family business.'

QUESTION: A movie like that had to be hard on Tom Hanks because he was on camera almost all the time. How do you relate with actors and help him through those situations?

BURGESS: Tom Hanks is a great actor and great human being. He has a way of keeping both feet on the ground, even when he's in the middle of a film. He was in almost every shot playing a character who was humorous, but there were also some very serious scenes with sad material. I remember one day when he was at the gravesite after Jenny had passed away. We were doing this dolly move as he was doing his, 'You died on a Tuesday morning,' speech. I had a grip who was about 6'6, 265, who was in tears while he was pushing the dolly. One of the highlights of making a film is when you get to witness performances like that. It's like a miner striking gold. Every once in a while, Bob and I would look at each other in awe about the magic that was happening. We had 27 guys tiptoeing around with microphones, manipulating crane arms and making dolly moves in addition to the operators, focus pullers and prop men. Everybody had to be perfect for it to work. When that happens, its magic.

It's important for cinematographers to have relationships with the actors, so they feel very comfortable in front of your camera and believe that you are taking care of them. They have to believe you are doing your best to make them look their best, and that you are attentive to their needs as far as getting their performance on that film. You need them to trust you and feel comfortable with what you are doing. It's not a buddy-buddy relationship. It's a professional relationship that makes them feel comfortable knowing you're taking care of them.

QUESTION: Did the success of Forrest Gump change your life?

BURGESS: When you're involved with a film like that one, it changes your career in a lot of ways. You do have the opportunity to meet more directors and read better scripts.

QUESTION: Did Forrest Gump also accelerate your commercial career?

BURGESS: Yes, having a hit movie like that helps your commercial career too because they see something in the movie that they really loved or they just want to meet you.

QUESTION: Your next film was Richie Rich. Do you have any memories to share?

BURGESS: It was a Joel Silver production and the director was Donald Petrie. We shot it in Chicago and South Carolina, and it was a pleasant experience.

QUESTION: Another film you did during that period which I loved was Contact.

BURGESS: Contact was to this date the most difficult film that I've shot. I'm very proud of some of the shots that we pulled off in that film. There's a shot where young Ellie discovers her father has had a heart attack. She runs up the stairs into the bathroom to get his heart medicine. The shot is ultimately a reflection of her mind remembering what happened. We actually flopped everything so the shot looks like a reflection in a mirror in the house. We shot it with a VistaVision camera on a Steadicam. We had to ramp the camera speed because after running up the stairs and running down the hallway, the camera pulls away from the performer to create the illusion of her having a difficult time reaching her destination. We ramped the camera speed down, so it got slower and slower as she progressed down the hallway. As she reached the mirror, you realized that the whole shots been a reflection. She reached for the medicine and then closed the mirrored door of the cabinet, and it revealed a picture of her and her father on the wall. It then dissolved to white. Those are the kinds of shots that Bob (Zemeckis) comes up with all the time. Fortunately, he comes up with these ideas early on so we have a chance to figure out how to do them. We were able to design sets around those shots, and we had plenty time to discuss how to make them work. There were numerous shots like that one in Contact. There was a shot where Jodie Foster's character hears a signal. She is driving and stops her vehicle in front of a building. It starts as a tight crane shot which booms down as she drives up to the building. The camera was on a Steadicam. The operator stepped off the crane and followed her into the building. There's a bend in the halfway that opens onto a Hollywood soundstage. We did numerous versions of that type of shot in this film.

QUESTION: Did Zemeckis actually script the camera moves that way?

BURGESS: We talked through the entire movie before we started shooting, so we were able to plan and build around the design of the shots. There was another shot early on where the camera was focused on the license plate of a car parked in the driveway. It boomed up over a balcony and went through a window, down a hallway and into a bedroom. The exterior was in New York and the interior was on a soundstage in Hollywood. It blends together like one shot.

QUESTION: How do you put together crews for different types of films? Do you have regular people who you try to work with, or does it depend on the project?

BURGESS: Over the years, I've put together an 'A' list of people who I like working with on different types of projects. I've found people who are extremely proficient at what they do, and who get along and work really well with each other. That's really important when you are working a minimum of 12 hours a day. You want people who look forward to coming to work every day. They have to be inspired by the story, want to work together, and also be capable of pulling off the shots that we planned. It takes skill and teamwork. If I'm using a crane arm and remote head, I need two dolly grips who are in tune with the actor or actors, and an operator and a focus puller who are capable of working off a remote head with very few marks.

QUESTION: Do you do any personal mentoring?

BURGESS: I always try to hire a camera P.A. whenever I have that opportunity. I know by lunch the first day how long they're going to last. Either you hang out with a film crew for 12 to 14 hours and say, 'I love this. This is great! I want to come back tomorrow,' or 'Are you guys are out of your minds. You're nuts. How do you do this?' I was on a commercial shoot just this week, and a young lady who was working on as an assistant cameraman on the TV show being shot on the next stage came by to say hello. She was my camera P.A. on Terminator 3. She got into the Guild and has a job on a show. She was as happy as you can be.

QUESTION: How about sharing a memory from What Lies Beneath?

BURGESS: We shot the first half of Castaway and shut down for a year. Then, we went into production of What Lies Beneath, finished that movie and shot the second half of Castaway. It was like shooting three movies back-to-back that were different in styles and concepts. It was great as a cinematographer have the opportunity to work in different styles. What Lies Beneath was a very heavily designed film with camera movements, lighting and sets all contributing to the suspenseful look and feeling of the movie. Lighting played a big part of that picture. Castaway was more of an adventure with big, daylight exteriors. I've always believed that a cinematographer should have the ability to go any direction for lighting comedies, dramas and suspense films or any other genre. I think that's what keeps it interesting. I shot Spider-Man (in 2002) on sound stages where we recreated reality. My next picture is called Antarctica. We'll be shooting big exteriors while dealing with the elements 750 miles north of Vancouver. Either way, you have to cover scenes and get the day's work done.

QUESTION: We are going to come back to Antarctica at the end of this conversation. How about Spider-Man? How did you define the boundary between fantasy and reality?

BURGESS: As I recall, the early discussions, we wanted to base a comic book on reality. I think that kept the audience more connected to the central character. If the audience become empathetic and connects with the character, they'll venture down the road on his journey with him. I think it's fascinating to make those types of characters as real as possible.

QUESTION: How did you do that with Spider-Man?

BURGESS: The production designer created a neighborhood for him to grow up in that looked like a cartoon, so partially it was the architecture and environment. What I tried to do is take a supernatural character and make him as real as possible so people believe that this guy could truly exist. I dirtied it down to make it feel like he was fading into the real world today.

QUESTION: What does that mean, dirty it down?

BURGESS: I kept the look gritty with sparse lighting, and we also shook the camera quite a bit to keep anything from feeling too settled. We wanted to make and keep the audience a little nervous and on edge, so they always feel a half a step behind what they are watching.

QUESTION: Was that something you saw in your mind when you read the script?

BURGESS: When I read a script, I instantly visualize the scene like its coming off the page. It might take reading the script a few times before you settle on the direction that you want to head in. A lot of it is comes from your meetings with the director after you have read the script and see if you are on the same track.

QUESTION: How about a movie like Terminator 3? Did you study the style of the original two films or start from scratch?

BURGESS: There was definitely a style developed by (James) Cameron and Adam Greenberg (ASC), but we wanted to create a different version of the same story. (Director) Jonathan Mostow and I looked at both of the earlier Terminator movies. I hadn't seen the first one in so many years that I had forgotten what it looked like and what it was about. I realized that the only thing that had to remain the same was that Arnold (Schwarzenneger) is the Terminator. The script and cast helped to dictate the path that we took.

You have got to take your hat off to Arnold. They wanted to take that film to Canada. It didn't make any sense at all. Arnold stepped forward and said, "I'll put up X amount of money, who's gonna join in with me to keep this picture here in Southern California?" That film needed to be made in Southern California. It's where it was scripted for and where the story took place. It was huge bringing a $100 million movie back to Southern California.

QUESTION: Wasn't the environment an important part of the story?

BURGESS: Sure. I can't tell you how many scripts I've read that are written for New York City, California or someplace else in the United States that are going to suffer because they can make the movie cheaper somewhere else.

QUESTION: One of the scenes from Castaway that sticks in my mind is the plane crash. Will you tell us about it?

BURGESS: The design of the plane crash is material for a textbook. First of all, the story is told entirely from the central character's point of view. We never cut outside the airplane to see it crash. You don't have to see the crash. What makes it terrifying is that you feel that you are sitting there with Tom Hanks and you're going through the same experience that he is going through. That sets up the dramatic curve of the story…and it does it perfectly. What makes him (Zemeckis) such a great director is that he sticks with the point of view of the story he is telling. When you can connect an audience to the character, the way he did in Castaway, it becomes so much more powerful. I've had people tell me that they won't fly in airplanes after seeing that sequence because they're just terrified by it. We had seven different levels of the intensity of camera shakes that peaks during the crash scene. We used specific lenses for wider-angle shots early in the scene and a long lens for a more claustrophobic look that makes him look more isolated. We used lighting to simulate the feeling of the power outage on the plane, and when the wind is blowing through the plane, we used dust to make the audience feel the movement of the air in the cabin. You can't just go in there and says, "Okay, we're going to shake the camera, and we're going to have a little bit of this and that," You have got to design and build a dramatic structure. So many people fail with camera movement, because they don't set the shots up to tell the story as it unfolds. The pacing has to make the audience want to keep going in the direction that you are taking them, and it has to pay it off in the end. The camera has to get to a point, from the right angle with the right lens, where its either going to resolve a conflict or it's not. You have to design the pace of movement for that moment in the story.

QUESTION: Will you tell us about Radio?

BURGESS: Radio is a wonderful feel-good movie that was a pleasure to be involved in. We had the opportunity to meet the real Radio, and we saw him at the high school where he is today. It was really special going to a small town in South Carolina to make that picture… it was a very enjoyable experience. Mike Tollin was the director. He did a great job. Revolution Studios, backed us all the way with tremendous of support. You have got to give them credit. If a story is supposed to take place in the United States then that's where they shoot it.

QUESTION: Where did you actually shoot it?

BURGESS: We shot it in Walterboro, South Carolina. The first day of principal photography took place at an elementary school in Walterboro, which is an hour out of Charleston. The look of Radio was something I struggled with quite a bit. We used the same school in Forrest Gump. Walterboro is like a lot of smaller towns, where the K-Marts and Wal- Marts move in and the original main street dries up. That's the street that we used for the town, and it set the tone for the size and scale of the world we were creating. I wandered around the town trying to get a handle on what the look of this picture should be. I ended up wanting to do a softer look for scenes in the town and everything away from the school, and give the game more punch. It's kind of like game time when adrenalin is flowing and everything is sharper and crisper. I used a low contrast stock for the softer look and a sharper film for other scenes.

QUESTION: That gives a lot of credit to the intelligence or at least the visual literacy of audiences. That's a very interesting comment, because there are technology vendors who say none of that matters, because the audience can't tell the difference. They say anyone can put a camera on their shoulder, push a few button and fix any problems later in postproduction. What do you think?

BURGESS: I think that's wrong. Individual cinematographers bring a personal touch that goes into their work and into the movies they work on. The problem I see for cinematographers in the future is the lack of understanding of what we do and how we are perceived. You see commercials claiming anyone can make movies with their iMacs. You also see that mindset happening on feature films with digital intermediates finishes. Supposedly, anybody can come in, sit down on these comfy couches, look at images on a giant screen, and push some buttons to create the look. I personally don't think that's a good thing. There's a reason why there are cinematographers, directors, producers and all of the other people it takes to make movies. Everyone has a role to play. There are directors who are visually strong, but their most important job is getting great performances on the screen that tells the story.

QUESTION: What's your experience regarding this issue?

BURGESS: Robert Zemeckis is among the most visual directors who I have ever worked with, and he doesn't get involved with the timing of the film until I'm done. He wants me to time the picture, and when I'm done, he looks at the film, and it's open for discussion. Most directors I've worked with understand why it's important to let the cinematographer do his pass on the movie and then bring it up for discussion.

I also think it's important to have an up-front agreement with the director about whether other people will be involved in timing the film. I've always gone in the lab and done the timing, and then showed the film to the director. One of the problems is that digital intermediates are an expensive process that adds costs to making films. There are ways to trim those costs. For instance, you can shoot three perf 35 mm film and save some of the costs of the negative. If you are shooting three perf it also locks you into hi-def dailies and that also saves some money.
One of the unresolved issues is if D.I. stretches over many weeks, how do you compensate the cinematographer, and does that become a deterrent to having them there?

QUESTION: Is that last statement the biggest problem?

BURGESS: The biggest problem I'm having is that all of a sudden everybody is getting involved in timing. You have producers and visual effects people trying to set looks for films.

QUESTION: Have you actually done a digital intermediate yet?

BURGESS: I've done digital intermediates on Terminator 3 and Christmas With the Kranks. Both films were done at EFILM. I found the process really interesting. First of all, the cinematographer is going to be involved for a lot more time than you would with a conventional optical process where you would go in to the lab, screen the work print with the timer, and talk through what changes you would like to see. Maybe you come back a week later and screen the film again and you're talking through changes that you want to make. It's pretty simple. Make that lighter or darker, or the skin tone is wrong. That usually takes about two hours. You might come back three days later, and you keep going through that process until it's done. Typically, the whole process takes from eight to 10 hours of your time. In a digital intermediate process, you go through it shot by shot and look at the results. My experience is takes 20 to 30 hours, depending on the film. There's also more flexibility. Maybe if you know you are going to do a digital intermediate there are things you might decide to 'fix' in D.I.

QUESTION: Did you decide to shoot either of your D.I. projects on a three-perf film?

BURGESS: I did some three three-perf tests for Terminator 3, but we decided not to do it, because they weren't totally committed to a D.I. up-front. Three perf also locks you into video dailies. I checked out HD dailies, and at that time, I didn't like what they had to offer. I felt it was really important to make sure that Arnold looked his best in that film. It was really important to have print dailies and see how the images looked on film projected on a screen.

QUESTION: How about 13 Going On 30, another recent film?

BURGESS: 13 Going On 30 was a film I did with (director) Gary Winick. It was his first studio feature film. It was a great experience working with Gary. I really admire his ability as a director, and the lead actress Jennifer Garner was wonderful.

QUESTION: They are going to post an interview with you about your role in the making of The Polar Express on the website, so I won't ask you to go into a lot of details. Will you comment about the conversion of the 35 mm film to 3-D IMAX format?

BURGESS: The Polar Express in 3-D IMAX is fantastic. I was pleasantly surprised at how great the blow up looks. The color rendition and the quality of the images are spectacular. It's a wonderful experience to see that movie in 3-D, however, I don't think it will work for every movie. I think it works for The Polar Express, because it's a fantasy world where there's a lot of great action imagery coming at you as the train makes the journey to the North Pole. I think the way that Bob (Zemeckis) designed the shots really works in 3-D. When you're sitting in the audience and 3-D images of the train seems to stop an inch from your head, it's really fun.

QUESTION: It was a revolutionary role for a cinematographer to play in the making of a computer-animated movie. Do you get asked about it a lot?

BURGESS: The question I get asked on a regular basis is what is the role of a cinematographer on a computer-animated movie? I think the best answer is that I have been part of Robert Zemeckis' team for years. I think he wanted to keep the team together and figure out how to re-invent the wheel. It was all about problem solving, which is one of our jobs. Once it was decided to use motion capture, we had to decide how to set it up and how do we discuss different shots. We had to make sure that each shot was properly blocked and that we used the right lens language. We created a very specific language for movement and composition and choosing focal lengths for lenses, which allowed us to talk about shots the same way that we've always done. Everyone was involved, including the wardrobe people and prop people.

QUESTION: They are also posting an article about Christmas with the Kranks on the website, so I won't ask you for the details, but will you comment about about it being shot in Los Angeles

BURGESS: Christmas with the Kranks takes place in Chicago during the winter. We had to control light in exterior scenes for many shots on a neighborhood street. They decided to build a neighborhood street in Southern California on what was once a huge parking lot at a facility where they once built the Space Shuttle. Garreth Stover, the production designer, did an incredible job of creating a Chicago suburb look right down to the old growth trees that he planted. He asked me which way the street should face before they built the set. We figured out angles for the best direction on sunlight. I got my crew involved and we made suggestions for the design of every house and how we were going to handle lighting. We had cable laid under the set to make control of lighting as functional as possible. We also built an 80 by 100-foot frame and put a large silk on it, and hung it from a huge construction crane. We used that to create a shadow footprint that made it feel like winter on bright, sunny days.

QUESTION: You recently participated in a seminar at the American Film Market with more than 100 young and low budget film producers and directors in the audience. They seemed genuinely surprised when you told them why it's important to have cinematographers involved before they made major decisions during pre-production planning. Why is that?

BURGESS: That comes back to people's perceptions of what cinematographers do. Some people have the idea that we walk around with light meters and figure out how much light we need to expose the film. There is obviously a lot more to it than that. It requires a lot of knowledge and teamwork to put compelling images that tell the story on the screen. I've been fortunate that people who I have worked with have brought me onto films sometimes months ahead of time to discuss the sets that are going to be built, locations and to address issues regarding production. There are artistic questions regarding use of colors that we should have a say in. There are also practical questions regarding what it would take to shoot on a particular set or location. I remember one of the questions someone in the audience asked was about shooting at a very large location. I think it was a big train station. They chose that location before they hired a cinematographer. I told them choosing that location without the cinematographer involved could make the difference between jelling windows and using a particular film stock, and spending three weeks pre-rigging equipment to make the set work. The more you plan up-front, the better the execution and ultimately the film is going to turn out. I think cinematographers have a very important role to play in preproduction.

QUESTION: What can you tell us about Antarctica?

BURGESS: Most of the story takes place in Antarctica. We are going to have to recreate that world and create a look that gives us the feeling of the cold, bare open spaces in Antarctica. We are going to create some of it on stages and some at appropriate locations. It's loosely based on a true story. We are scouting in December and January and begin shooting in late February.

QUESTION: Do you think that the evolution of technology is going to change the role of cinematographers and the crewmembers who work with them? We discussed this to some extent in our conversation about digital intermediate and the perception you can fix anything in post.

BURGESS: Technology is constantly changing the role of the cinematographer. We once had handcranked cameras and black-and white-film. Everything is better today--film, lenses, lighting and the ways we can move the camera, and, of course, the D.I, bays… but, you know, Connie Hall (ASC), Haskell Wexler (ASC), Vilmos Zsigmond (ASC) and Laszlo Kovacs (ASC) made beautiful movies 30 years ago that anyone would be proud to do today. The perception is that it's easier today, and in a way that's true, because of all the new tools, but it still takes the eye of a Connie Hall or a Haskell Wexler to make great pictures. It didn't matter what set of tools or paint brushes you give them. They were going to create great images. New technology is enabling a lot of people to do some form of cinematography, but that doesn't make them great cinematographers.

QUESTION: Do you think it requires a talent that you are born with, or is cinematography a skill set that can be taught, or is it a combination of both?

BURGESS: I think it's something you are absolutely born with, just like some people are born with an ability to paint. I think that's why there have been so few great filmmakers.

QUESTION: Do you have any advice to offer people who are reading or following this chat live who are still in film school or at the beginning of their careers?

BURGESS: If you love the work and feel passionate about it, persevere. I'm sure glad that I pursued it. It's a great life and I still enjoy going to work every morning 30 years later.

QUESTION: Are you still a movie fan?

BURGESS: I love great cinema, and I love seeing movies projected in a theater. I think I'm a tougher audience than I used to be, but I still get goose bumps. I still enjoy the feelings that I get when I see it done right. I'm exhilarated when I see a wonderful movie. When I'm shooting a movie, I don't typically go to see other movies. I really try to stay focused on the movie that I'm making, so I don't see anything that might sway me off the path that I've set up. Castaway was a classic example. Because we shut down for a year, I wrote a letter to myself saying, 'Okay, here's your plan. This is what you set out to do. Stick to it.' That really helped because a year later when we came back to shoot the second half of the movie, I had to remind myself what I was trying to do and why.

QUESTION: Does it get easier as time goes on?

BURGESS: I don't think you can ever get too comfortable because you are always searching for ways to take a story to the next level. A producer explained to me a long time ago that if the director screws up, chances are you can fix it in the editing room. But, if the cinematographer screws up, it may mean you need a re-shoot on a picture that's costing $200,000 a day. That brings up the question, 'how much of a risk are you willing to take?' We try to test as much as we can in preproduction, but ideas come up during the making of the movie. Things happen, because it's an organic process, and you got to be willing to take some chances when things are happening differently then you intended even though there are risks involved. That's the daily battle of trying to make it interesting and different while delivering on time and budget. That's also why teamwork and a great crew are important. No one make great movies alone.