Transcript
of Live Chat with
Bill
Butler, ASC
October
26, 2002
Note: This chat was
conducted at the 144th SMPTE Conference at the Pasadena Conference
Center. Questions were accepted from both our online chat guests and
the assembled audience. SMPTE Audience indicates that
question was submitted from one of our guests on-site.
Moderator (Oct 26, 2002 4:04:36 PM)
Good afternoon, everyone. We're chatting with Bill Butler, ASC live
from the 144th SMPTE Conference at the Pasadena Conference
Center.
George H. (Oct 26, 2002 4:06:41 PM)
If you were shooting Jaws today, would you do anything differently?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:07:09 PM)
If I were shooting today I am shooting today. Oh, Jaws. Jaws,
if it were shot today would be quite different.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:07:25 PM)
In the first place it was a mechanical shark driven by mechanical rams.
Recently in Anaconda we had a snake. It was also animated, but
much more sophisticated. And it was run by a computer. So you see, things
have advanced and changed considerably, even in mechanical creatures.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:08:08 PM)
However, as far as camera techniques are concerned, probably one of
the major advantages today, of shooting on water, which was kind of
a new thing at the time both for Spielberg and myself, was the jump
away from 400 pound weight on the camera to stabilize it. In Jaws
we made a major leap away from that by using a hand-held camera.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:08:59 PM)
If we were shooting today, you would probably see a major use of cranes
with a remote head, which I've used several times since then on a couple
water pictures I've done. On top of that they have stabilizers to keep
the camera stable.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:09:41 PM)
In one case, where we tried to make a helicopter shot on one picture,
we borrowed we adapted the helicopter device and put it on the end
of a crane on a boat and raced through the water and were able then
to get the same shot the helicopter had tried to get but without the
spray.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:09:59 PM)
So there are a lot of techniques that are new that would be quite different
today.
Kristy (Oct 26, 2002 4:10:07 PM)
Was your experience on Jaws surprising? Surprisingly difficult?
Surprisingly successful?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:10:35 PM)
Well, I like difficult shows. It was very difficult. The main difficulty
actually was making the mechanical shark work. And in a strange way,
that forced both the director and myself to be more creative and more
clever in telling the story.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:11:06 PM)
And probably made the story better because we saw less shark, and we
were then forced to tell the story without seeing the shark all the
time. Which caused us to use the barrels, etc, to avoid seeing the shark.
Someone came up with the barrels on the front of the boat to pull them
into the water as if the shark had taken the bait, so you thought you
were seeing the shark when actually it wasn't working.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:12:28 PM)
I think it was both surprisingly difficult, certainly surprisingly successful.
Toufic (Oct 26, 2002 4:12:33 PM)
Could you tell when you worked on The Rain People and The
Conversation that Coppola was going to become one of the most important
directors of modern times?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:12:57 PM)
The answer to that is no, I really didn't have any idea of how successful
anybody would be. I just found him extremely interesting.
Steve Golden (Oct 26, 2002 4:13:12 PM)
I just resaw Biloxi Blues, how did you do the opening and closing
shots? What type of mount? What type of helicopter, etc And who was
your aerial cameraman.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:13:57 PM)
When I made the opening shot on Biloxi Blues, I picked a cameraman
I'd used many times before also Butler. No relation however. And we
really wanted to try to get the helicopter as close to the train as
possible. This became very difficult because the train was going over
a bridge.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:14:22 PM)
It meant also putting lights in every car of the train because this
was before the sun had come up and it meant the helicopter had to zoom
in close enough to see just a head shot so you wouldn't know you were
even on a train. And then it developed into a wider and wider shot until
the helicopter went through the smoke of the train.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:15:08 PM)
It was a very difficult shot to put together just because you had to
get everybody up in the dark, dress them, light the train, and the train
could only go across the bridge one time. No second take possible.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:15:45 PM)
David Butler, the cameraman, was able to zoom the camera out, hold focus,
and keep it steady, and he was doing this all by himself on the helicopter
mount. I have used him many times, as he has proven to be the most fantastic
helicopter operator I've ever used.
Bricky (Oct 26, 2002 4:16:03 PM)
Has Fearless Frank ever been converted to a videocassette or
DVD?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:16:21 PM)
Fearless Frank was the first feature film I ever shot. It was
shot in Chicago. Jon Voight played the lead in it. It has not been seen
a lot. I doubt if it's on DVD or videocasette. This was way ahead of
its time. Phil Kaufman directed it and it was his first directing job.
He's one of 20 first-time directors I've had.
SMPTE Audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:17:08 PM)
Do you know what has happened to the early 16 mm documentaries you shot?
Are any of them still around?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:17:34 PM)
Unfortunately, many of the films that won awards for Bill Friedkin and
myself in the early days, are hard to find.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:17:50 PM)
I had the unfortunate experience of putting them in the trunk of my
car to have them transferred. And someone stole my car. So I don't have
any of them myself. Bill Friedkin may have some.
Moderator (Oct 26, 2002 4:18:01 PM)
From your daughter Gena: How do you deal with being separated from your
wife and daughter while away on distant locations?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:18:19 PM)
Gena, I'm glad you're there.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:18:31 PM)
Gena's my 14-year-old daughter going to Cate. I feel lonely. And spend
a lot of time on the television. Sorry, that's telephone.
Sabriel (Oct 26, 2002 4:18:58 PM)
What was the most exciting location you (Bill) have been to?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:19:21 PM)
Oh, I think Jaws was the most exciting location. But there's
been so many.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:19:35 PM)
Anaconda we shot in South America, and that's pretty hard to
beat. The Amazon. And it was all on water, not on land.
jazzbass (Oct 26, 2002 4:19:45 PM)
I noticed from your interview that you did second unit work with Bill
Fraker and later with Vilmos Zsigmond on Deliverance. It seems
now in retrospect that there was a great group of young cinematographers
breaking into the industry at the same time. Did you know and influence
each other beyond the encounters you mentioned on these few films?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:20:27 PM)
I didn't really have any idea that we were going to have a lasting influence
on the industry. But we did. We were just having too much fun doing
it to realize we were influencing the industry as much as we were. We
knew we were doing interesting things. Fraker was shooting his first
or second picture when I worked with him. It was the great '70s in which
everything was changing, not just films.
SMPTE audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:21:09 PM)
Can you discuss the challenges of working with a first-time director?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:21:27 PM)
Working with a first-time director is a two-edged sword.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:21:44 PM)
On one hand, Coppola, Spielberg, Foreman, I'm just trying to remember
some. Ivan Reitman. All of these people that are now fabulously wealthy
from doing great films.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:22:14 PM)
Each one had a different challenge. The main challenge is to keep up
with them. They're fresh. They'll try anything. On top of that you're
expected to bring home a film that will edit.
SMPTE Audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:22:27 PM)
You worked with some great directors early in your career, Coppola,
Kaufman, Spielberg, Mike Nichols and Milos Foreman and others. Are there
common qualities that they all had that made them so successful?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:23:18 PM)
It's interesting in creative business, which motion pictures are, that
there's so many people involved. Director, myself, operator, focus puller
who's so clever. The set designer, make-up people. A motion picture
is never made by one person, but the director is the leader, and it's
from his head great ideas should come from and do, in these cases.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:23:46 PM)
I think the one outstanding ingredient they all had is they're very
creative and very brilliant.
Lenser (Oct 26, 2002 4:24:11 PM)
When shooting a boxing picture, which is more important: the scenes
leading up to the fight or the fight sequence itself?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:24:43 PM)
I can't really give an honest answer, because in the first place the
script is most important. And whether the person wins or loses only
supports the script behind it.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:24:47 PM)
Obviously the story is everything. If the fight doesn't tell you anything
or get you anywhere it's unimportant. But how you show the fight is
part of the trickery of looking like someone's getting killed without
shedding any real blood.
Warren Jabali (Oct 26, 2002 4:25:25 PM)
You've worked in every genre. Can you discuss which is your favorite?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:25:43 PM)
I love making feature motion pictures and shooting on film. Because
I love the way film acts and how it looks. And it seems to be more friendly
to camera people.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:26:18 PM)
However, I've done both. I came out of electronic television, won an
Emmy as an electronics cameraperson, so I can't hate that either. I
just like to be doing it.
SMPTE Audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:26:28 PM)
I heard that Sony has restored Drive, He Said the 1971 picture
you shot for Jack Nicholson. What were your impressions seeing it again
30 years? Would you do anything differently today?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:26:56 PM)
Yes, I certainly would try to keep it more in focus.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:27:07 PM)
However, it seemed to fit that picture to take a looser attitude, more
handheld approach to it. We just screened it the other day at the Directors
Guild. Someone seems to know I just saw it again.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:27:26 PM)
It was thrilling to see it again with Jack. I think it's a picture that
should be seen today; they didn't give it a wide release at the time
because it's full of nudity. Both sexes.
Big Al (Oct 26, 2002 4:27:49 PM)
Can you share any anecdotes about Bill Murray?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:28:10 PM)
Bill Murray was an absolute blast to work with. And it was Ivan Reitman's
first film that I shot with him. To see someone who can ad lib such
great dialogue and such attitudes, it makes you laugh just watching
him. We became great friends on Stripes, and Stripes then
went on to make $100 million, and it was low budget.
Luigi (Oct 26, 2002 4:28:44 PM)
Grease is one of my all-time favorites. How does it rate with
you among your personal favorites?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:29:22 PM)
Grease rates very high. That's partly because through the circumstance
of the time I was handed the problem of how to take it off the stage
and turn it into a motion picture. A difficult task. And Allan Carr
handed it to me because the director he had hired quit.
jazzbass (Oct 26, 2002 4:29:44 PM)
How important it is for film students to learn how to light? Many schools
don't stress lighting at all.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:30:12 PM)
Well, I personally enjoy the task of lighting, probably above anything
else. Outside of the picture's composition. Sometimes it's a matter
of finding the light if you're outdoors. If you can get the producers
to let you do this. Wait for the good light. You can't always do that.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:30:59 PM)
I think in film school you have to learn the task at certain levels.
First how to expose the film and do the mechanics. Then if you have
any talent, you turn that loose and hopefully make your own picture.
Certainly there are certain types of pictures that benefit from natural
light. At other times you're trying to create beauty on your own.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:31:39 PM)
Obviously this is a big challenge. Therefore, lighting becomes paramount.
It's not always.
SMPTE Audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:31:51 PM)
Have all the advances in technology-new films, lenses, CG, and all of
that, made it easier for someone to become a cinematographer today?
Does it take less talent or skill than it did when you were breaking
in?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:32:26 PM)
In the first place, I didn't go to film school. I came out of TV. I
was already successful as an electronic engineer. And I was over 40
years old.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:32:43 PM)
So I picked up the handbook that the ASC puts out and that was my education
in making films.
I think anybody can do that. I did it. And as far as
is one thing easier than the other, the truth is that you can make pictures
a lot of different ways.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:33:15 PM)
The bottom line though is do you have the talent. And you have to try
it before you learn that.
Because you can get a job, if you talk fast enough.
But if you're going to keep the job, you have to deliver.
Toufic (Oct 26, 2002 4:33:43 PM)
There is so much hype today about directors just putting cameras on
their shoulders and making their own movies. What does this mean for
the future of cinematography?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:34:19 PM)
In the first place, there have always been directors who wanted to do
it all. That's understandable.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:34:29 PM)
I'd like to do it myself. Then you have control of everything. Unfortunately,
most people don't have that kind of talent. They may have talent for
handling actors and a genius for telling story.
But they may not have the skill to pulling focus, or
the skills required for electronic cameras. So very few people try to
take on all these tasks.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:35:33 PM)
Instead, moviemaking really is like a football team. A lot of people
make the quarterback look good.
SMPTE audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:35:35 PM)
I'm sure it would be different on all the types of films you have done,
but can you comment on an approximate number of set ups a day or number
of scripts a day a cinematographer can do?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:36:26 PM)
How many set-ups a day it doesn't depend just on the camera. It really
depends maybe more on the director, and all of your support people -
grips, electricians, etc. A lot of people are involved.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:36:46 PM)
But I can remember working with Sly Stallone and with one camera we
did 50 set ups one day, the next day with 2 cameras we did 100 set ups.
And that was because I was willing to move fast and he knew what he
wanted. If you don't have someone to move fast on their end, you can't
move fast on yours.
Toufic (Oct 26, 2002 4:37:14 PM)
You said in your interview that in hindsight, you should have studied
art? If you could design the curriculum for today's students what would
it include?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:37:52 PM)
A curriculum for today's students would depend on their talents. I had
talents that I did not fully develop when I was young, so I regret not
having better advice when I was in school.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:38:01 PM)
But to be a cinematographer, you have to have more than one kind of
talent. You have to be mechanically adroit, and you also have to have
talent for lights, composition, and what you appreciate as beauty.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:38:41 PM)
And that is different in each and every one of us. And beyond that,
some God-given talent for which we don't get any credit. But if you
have the talent, and don't develop it, that's a crime.
SMPTE Audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:38:52 PM)
Do you ever teach classes and if so where?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:39:14 PM)
I have taught before at Columbia Univ. in Chicago, and those classes
were before I even shot film. I've also spoken before USC and other
film schools all over the country actually. Not so much as a teacher,
just a guest lecturer. I do enjoy it very much because I enjoy young
students.
Luigi (Oct 26, 2002 4:39:52 PM)
When you shoot sequels, such as Rocky, are there special considerations?
Do you try to make them look the same, or maybe slightly different?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:40:20 PM)
Rocky as a sequel. No, we did not try to make it look the same,
we tried to make it look better. And I think we were successful, because
Rocky's sequel was the first time in history that a sequel outgrossed
the original.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:40:55 PM)
And each one got better than the last as far as how long it took to
shoot the fight scenes and how good both Stallone and I were at capturing
the action.
Michael (Oct 26, 2002 4:40:59 PM)
How was it working with Prince, primarily a musician, on Grafitti
Bridge?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:41:24 PM)
Working with Prince on Graffiti Bridge was one of the most interesting
challenges I've been fortunate to have.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:41:35 PM)
Initially, Prince walked into the room and I walked up to say hello.
He said, Chill.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:41:56 PM)
So it was a couple of days before we even spoke. And then when he could
see what I was putting on the screen, suddenly he became more interested.
And then he read a book called Masters of Light, in which I was fortunate
to have a chapter, and realized there was more to what I was doing than
he had thought.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:42:47 PM)
We then became very good friends, to the point anyone who's appearing
in his own material really needs advice on how well he's doing. So when
he trusted me enough to ask how well he was doing, I realized we had
become good friends.
Ris (Oct 26, 2002 4:42:46 PM)
The success of Moulin Rouge suggested that cinematic musicals
weren't dead much like the reaction rec'd by Grease. But there
don't seem to be many quality copycats. Is a good cinematic musical
like catching lightning in a bottle?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:44:02 PM)
I think someone has realized that a musical is not a simple motion picture
to make. When I was handed the problem, and Allan Carr expected a lot
more than just shooting the picture, I tried to research why musicals
weren't succeeding.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:44:15 PM)
One thing I discovered was they were not motivating the transitions.
Which doesn't sound like much. But it's a key element. Especially in
musicals.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:44:38 PM)
In Grease, I tried to be sure they motivated the transition from
dancing to singing and from singing to dialogue. That is part of, and
only part of, the success of Grease, which is the biggest moneymaking
musical of all time. And still is.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:45:12 PM)
I felt that Moulin Rouge was exciting and beautiful, extremely
talented people doing a wonderful job. I only hope there's more musicals
made, like it and Grease.
SMPTE audience (Oct 26, 2002 4:45:28 PM)
With your love of film and background in video, would you recommend
that new filmmakers shoot in film or in video? How important is it NOT
to let the medium affect the viewing quality of the story?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:45:52 PM)
This is a very complicated question.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:46:03 PM)
Because at the moment film has the highest quality we can get on one
piece of material. Video is trying very hard to better that. Because
of the nature of what you can do in the electronic medium, there's a
lot of pressure to go electronic.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:46:35 PM)
But if you want to be good at making motion pictures, you have to know
both. The ability to expose film and make it look great. And you also
have to learn the limitations and benefits of the electronic camera.
The truth is today's student must learn both.
Mighty Mos (Oct 26, 2002 4:46:52 PM)
What do you mean by motivate the transition?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:47:44 PM)
Motivating the transition if you do a scene in a musical and people
are dancing, and you're enthralled by this you may think it's great.
But if suddenly they start a dialogue scene and you lose track of where
you are, you may leave the theater and say, well it was great dancing,
and great dialogue, but I don't remember what the story was about. So
unless you give them a reason for going from one to the other it must
relate to the story otherwise, you lose your audience for a few seconds
repeatedly, and you have no story.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:48:25 PM)
So motivating means there must be a reason when the dancing occurs.
There must be a motivation for someone to sing when someone sings.
blue (Oct 26, 2002 4:48:29 PM)
I want to work internationally. What is the best way to do that. I think
we need to take an active interest as cinematographers in the war. How
are you dealing with that?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:49:00 PM)
I love working internationally too.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:49:23 PM)
I just shot a film in Berlin recently -- the story of Joe and Max,
Max Schmelling and Joe E. Louis, before Hitler did his thing in Germany.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:49:39 PM)
It sounds as if you are politically motivated, and if that's the case,
please don't assume I'm equally politically motivated. My personal feeling
is if you can do something for the good of humanity, try and do it with
the talents you have.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:50:05 PM)
In my case, film first impressed me when we saved a man's life who was
due to die in the electric chair. It was called the People v Paul
Krump. A piece of film saved this man's life. That's powerful. So
I have always been motivated to take films, even Cuckoo's Nest,
that speak to the human condition.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:50:47 PM)
You don't very often get those kinds of films in feature work. For instance,
the Execution of Private Slovak. I took that because it was a
TV project that probably would never have been made into a feature film.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:51:17 PM)
So I have tried to take films that were personally important in my view.
I think you should do the same for yourself.
illadelphian (Oct 26, 2002 4:51:21 PM)
If there was one thing you could change about the current crop of new
directors , what would it be?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:51:42 PM)
I don't have any desire to change any of the directors in the new crop
I've met. And I meet a lot of them because I'm asked to help first-time
directors out a lot because of my experience and the length of time
I've been shooting film.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:52:10 PM)
Only recently, a new director was dying to have me on his project and
just couldn't get it together
because the producers had somebody they wanted him
to work with.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:52:32 PM)
That's very tough on a new director, not to get his choice of cinematographers.
There's nothing about them I would want to change. Many of them are
writers who are now becoming directors. I'm just happy to work with
anyone who wants to make a film.
Sabriel (Oct 26, 2002 4:52:49 PM)
What do you look for when you read a new script?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:53:09 PM)
Reading a new script is the most important thing I do outside of shooting
the film. Because it is up to you to choose a script that you think
has something to say and one that will be successful.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:53:37 PM)
I've had eight pictures go over $100 million. And that has to do with
your picking a project you think will be successful. Also, the people
on the other end have to pick you to do it. A two-way street. I can't
pinpoint what it is about a script that I think makes it successful,
except that it has something to say and speaks to me.
Luigi (Oct 26, 2002 4:54:09 PM)
Speaking of Cuckoo's Nest the film changed the POV from Chief
Broom (in the novel) to J. Nickelson's character. How do the liberties
that filmmakers take with novels square with the outrage many directors
vent when someone tampers with their "work of art?"
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:54:46 PM)
You're pointing out a great inconsistency in what we think someone's
rights are. Certainly the writers you must be a writer. The writers
would agree with you.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:55:16 PM)
However, in truth, it is a collaborative effort. And many stories benefit
from what the directors do with someone else's script. But that's not
always the case. I think in Cuckoo's Nest it was extremely successful.
So in this case you can't argue with Milos Foreman's choices.
George H. (Oct 26, 2002 4:55:44 PM)
Has there been a project that you wish you could do over? A shoot that
you felt could have been done better if it were done differently?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:56:02 PM)
I feel that way about every film I do.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:56:15 PM)
You cannot go home unless you think you're perfect. And be satisfied
with your work. I don't think any of us are. We go home and second guess
what we'd done, wish we'd changed things improved things. I hope every
day I could be better than I am.
Cher (Oct 26, 2002 4:56:37 PM)
What's been your proudest moment?
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:57:09 PM)
Well, they've just given me the Lifetime Achievement award with the
ASC that's pretty heavy duty.
Bill Butler (Oct 26, 2002 4:57:33 PM)
Thank you very much for being here. I hope I've said something of interest.
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