Transcript
of Live Chat with
Fred Elmes, ASC
May 8, 2004
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:09:09 AM)
Hi everyone. Chatting on the Internet is new for me and I'm anxious to give
it a try. First questions please.
George Spiro Dibie (May 8, 2004 10:09:15 AM)
Hello Fred. This is George Spiro Dibie. I’m speaking to you from London where
I’m visiting my family. I just want to take a moment to thank you for taking
the time to share your wisdom and insights with our members and friends.
I know that you are very modest and don’t like to talk about yourself, but
you have to learn how to take a compliment. You are a great role model and
a source of artistic inspiration for all of our younger members with unrealized
dreams. I will be following this conversation with great interest.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:10:03 AM)
Thank you for tuning in, George. I appreciate the kind words.
I_Pull (May 8, 2004 10:10:11 AM)
Fred, you mentioned that there is a new DVD of Eraserhead. I have a
couple of questions about that. First, and most important, did you participate
in the timing sessions, and is the DVD an accurate depiction of the film you
shot? My other question is who published that DVD and where can we buy it?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:11:11 AM)
I did participate in the timing. I think we got a very accurate rendition of
the film on video. I think the only place you can buy it on David Lynch's
website, www.davidlynch.com.
She Shoots (May 8, 2004 10:11:55 AM)
Was Jim Jarmusch always planning to put the short stories in Coffee and
Cigarettes together as a feature length film, or did that idea come later?
I know you said, he always saw the stories in black and white, but can you
tell us what that means? How does it affect the audience?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:12:53 AM)
Jim Jarmusch is a very big promoter of black and white. He really likes the
feeling he gets from it. For him - and me - it takes the story to a new level
visually. We're not imitating reality; we're creating something new visually.
And black and white helps us do that. For me, black and white has a kind
of magical quality to it. It creates its own reality. It takes the viewer
into a whole different world because you know right from the beginning it’s
a movie fantasy rather than an attempt to capture reality.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:14:56 AM)
I think the idea of a feature film came later for Jim. He was interested in
telling these short stories whenever he had the actors and camera together.
They came up one at a time for him and when he got several of them he realized
they would work together as a feature film.
Op_Ed (May 8, 2004 10:16:02 AM)
You mentioned that one of the things you learned from working with John Cassavettes
on The Killing of a Chinese Bookie was where to put the camera. Can
you give us an example or two from that movie and/or Opening Night?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:16:37 AM)
That's a hard question for me. Partly because the films were photographed so
long ago.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:17:08 AM)
I think what I meant when I say John has a sense of where to put the camera
is that he had an instinct of how to support the drama visually. As a director,
John was completely non-technical. He had no sense of how cameras worked
or what exposure or lighting was about. In fact, he rebelled against anything
too glossy or too Hollywood or polished or finished. The drama was driven
by what the actors were doing. It was very organic.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:19:48 AM)
It may not make sense in traditional editing terms, but it has a lot of power
dramatically. I think he was a genius at capturing the drama with the camera
and sometimes it meant a wide shot far away from the actor and sometimes
it meant cutting right to the actor with the camera right in his face.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:20:52 AM)
For instance in Opening Night, we often used wide shots of performances
of the theater then cut to a close up of the actors on stage. I think it gives
the story a sense of impact when you do that. The same when Gena Rowlands is
in her hotel suite and she's quite isolated with a wide shot and then we do
a close up.
SBDP (May 8, 2004 10:21:32 AM)
I really enjoyed the Hulk. I felt like the shot composition and the
editing in the first act did a good job of establishing a comic book feel.
I’m curious about how you would have approached the film if you would have
used a real actor rather than a CG actor.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:22:10 AM)
Oh my gosh, I never even thought about that. I guess, really and truly, I would
have approached the film the same way. It would have been much simpler with
a real actor on the set because with a CG character like the Hulk you do
so many complicated scenes to allow for him and all the time you're just
guessing because the character is the last thing completed.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:23:52 AM)
One of the things I enjoyed about The Hulk was that Ang Lee and I would
purposely cross the camera axis in order to make the scene a little disorienting
or bring some sense of tension to the scene. The way we did that was usually
to put a camera over each shoulder of the actors so we had two angles at the
same time. This gave us a lot of flexibility in the editing room. I liked the
technique a lot and it's something I'd like to explore later on.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:25:45 AM)
I don't see the reason for matching the size of close ups in dialogue shooting.
I would much rather have it feel a little bit more random and The Hulk seemed
to be the picture to try that on.
David Banner (May 8, 2004 10:26:03 AM)
Were you a fan of The Hulk? How much inspiration did you draw from the
comic book? From the TV show?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:26:27 AM)
I liked the comic book. I actually read comic books as a kid growing up. I
never watched the TV show, so I tried not to use that as a model. Ang Lee
is very big on using visual references and certainly the comic books were
some of his inspiration as well. When we looked back over the many years
of the comic books and all the different artists who drew The Hulk, we
drew our inspiration from all those different styles.
lenser (May 8, 2004 10:28:09 AM)
Was Hulk the first time you worked with a CG character? Was that experience
awkward? Was there a lot of learning on your part involved?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:29:04 AM)
There was enormous risk on my part and I would say it was also a risk for Ang
Lee to hire me because I had never done anything on that scale nor had Ang.
So it was a learning experience for both of us.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:29:33 AM)
We were very fortunate to have Industrial Light & Magic who were very supportive.
Dennis Muren, the effects supervisor, never said no to any of our requests.
It was funny because Ang and I would come up with a solution for a problem
like how to shoot something in an interesting way and then we'd ask Dennis.
He'd scratch his head and say he'd never done it that way, but why not?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:31:10 AM)
The entire ILM crew was great all the time. I was also surprised how forthcoming
the ILM crew was to any questions we had. I could call them at any time and
they were willing to help me out or venture a guess on how to solve the problem.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:32:16 AM)
That went all the way through post production as well. They'd put composite
shots up on a website and allow me to check the lighting on how the character
was coming. I could do that on my computer screen at home and help them out.
Some of it I had to be there for, but some of it could do it from New York
via the computer.
Tomfocus (May 8, 2004 10:32:25 AM)
Fred, concerning new technologies what are your opinions on: mini DV to theatrical
release and the use of the digital intermediate. Is it a good tool for all
films or only certain projects (without particular regard to the extra cost).
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:34:14 AM)
That's a big question. My opinion on the whole subject of technology is that
it’s our job to use whatever's out there in a creative and new way. It's
always about telling the story – bringing something fresh to story telling.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:35:16 AM)
For me, you could shoot the movie on mini DV or 65 mm, and if it's a good story,
you can tell it well regardless. Each medium you choose has some advantages
and some disadvantages. As the DP, you get to take advantage of what will
work for you. But your job is always to tell the story, no matter what you're
shooting on.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:36:03 AM)
In my limited experience in mini DV, what suffers the most are wide shots where
the detail is fuzzy and not very clear but close ups are very clear. So you
have to take that into consideration when shooting in mini DV.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:37:18 AM)
It 's your job to know the technology, and use the best one to tell the story.
I've never done a whole film on digital intermediate – just a few scenes.
I've found it to be very useful to manipulate the look of a film. But I think
it's important to go into the film with a point of view, otherwise you're
using tricks to make up for the story. I think the digital intermediate process
is a great idea and I hope in the coming years we can refine the process
so it's easier to use – as well as faster and less expensive.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:40:03 AM)
When the digital intermediate technology surfaced a few years ago there was
the promise of one color correction for the whole film. The promise was to
time the film once – one timing session for the entire film that would be
acceptable for the theater screen as well as for video. That hasn't happened
yet. It needs a few more years.
Cookie (May 8, 2004 10:40:34 AM)
Just joining in and wondering if you would comment about what qualities you
look for in a camera assistant and who she is.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:41:42 AM)
The camera assistant is one of the most important people on the set for me
because I need to be able to rely on that person to assure me that everything
I need out of the camera will be there for me. If it means special lenses
to do extra close ups or extra telephoto lenses or whatever the issue is,
I count on the camera assistant to ask me all these questions and then to
be able to work with the equipment.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:43:13 AM)
It's a big job and a bit thankless, I'm afraid. In addition, the film has to
be in focus and the assistant needs to have a congenial personality on set.
It's a difficult job.
tom r. (May 8, 2004 10:43:21 AM)
In The Ice Storm, did you find that you had particular responsibilities
working with young actors? Did you find any guidelines for either your task
in that regard or in helping the director with making them comfortable and
able to deliver? Thanks. By the way, I loved how the lighting and compositions
in the Ice Storm enhanced the sense of suburban isolation and hidden
interior lives.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:44:34 AM)
I would certainly credit Ang Lee with inspiring me to look at suburban America
in a new way. It all came from him.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:45:43 AM)
As far as young actors, the key is to be ready at all times. Sometimes it's
best not to rehearse with the actors. Just film the first rehearsal. Sometimes
very spontaneous things happen the first time and it's nice to capture that
on film, even if you make a technical adjustment on the second take. Sometimes
we ran a second camera to get another take on the young actor.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:46:53 AM)
Back to the look of Ice Storm…part of the inspiration Ang and I used
for the film were some photo realist paintings from the early '70s, images
that inspired both Ang and I. It's important to go into a film with a style
and some sense of how you want it to look. You go in with a view so you know
which direction you're going rather than making it up on the set – a look you're
working toward with the director.
Gino (May 8, 2004 10:48:00 AM)
The Ice Storm is one of my favorite films. You mentioned referencing
photo-realists from the ‘70s to get the look. Whose work did you specifically
refer to?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:49:08 AM)
I don't remember the names of the particular artists, but there were several
we looked at. The idea was never to copy their work so much as see the way
they studied the light and apply some of those same ideas to what we wanted
to do.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:49:49 AM)
The same was true of Ride with the Devil. For that film we chose different
painters. I would put copies of the painting up on my walls as a reference
for how the light should feel in a certain location. It was something the director
and I had agreed on.
Op_Ed (May 8, 2004 10:50:27 AM)
Fred, can you explain one of your answers about how new technology allows you
to more fully become the director’s eyes? Can you be more specific about
what that means?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:52:14 AM)
For me, becoming the director's eyes is really just a way of saying that I
need to draw the director out, to ask enough questions so I have enough sense
of how he or she wants to tell the story. The cinematographers’ relationship
with the director is like a marriage – complicated and long term during several
weeks of prep and several months of photography. So you're going to get to
know each other very well because you have to live with each other.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:53:59 AM)
Being the director's eyes is a combination of things. How I would interpret
how the director wants to tell the story. If the director was a cinematographer,
he or she wouldn't need me. But since I'm there I get to do some interpreting
as well. So it's how I interpret how the director is telling the story.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:54:33 AM)
As far as technology, it's part of our job to be aware of everything that's
available to us and then to choose what parts of that technology apply to
telling this story. You have to remember it's always true that 10 different
cinematographers would tell it in 10 completely different ways and that's
what brings the personal point of view to the story.
Focus (May 8, 2004 10:55:21 AM)
How wildly different are the processes of some of the directors you’ve worked
with (Lynch, Jarmusch and Ang Lee)?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:56:59 AM)
The longer I photograph films, the more different I realize directors really
are. Although they’re all telling stories on the screen, their approaches
are all very different and it's their approaches that drive me to try different
things.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 10:58:30 AM)
David Lynch, for example, was very interested in creating moods on the screen
for a scene and was interested in the details that are in front of the camera.
David approached things in a very painterly way, since that was his background.
At about the same time I met David, I worked with John Cassavetes who was
exactly the opposite. He had very little regard for technology. His stories
were driven by the actors alone. Both of these directors are very individual
and identifiable film makers who probably couldn't make a film in any other
way.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:00:50 AM)
As a cinematographer, I've learned to adapt to some directors who will be very
specific about which lens to use or how bright or dark a scene should look
or those directors who really don't care about those things but may have
other specific ideas about the actors instead. It's part of our job to be
adaptable and flexible. Each of the directors I've worked with has very specific
ideas about what goes in front of the camera. It's both fun and challenging
for me to try and make those things happen.
Jordan (May 8, 2004 11:02:09 AM)
Have you found there is a difference in sensibilities between cinematographers
who grow up -- or learn the craft -- on the east coast as opposed to the
west coast?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:03:29 AM)
It's much colder on the east cost during the winter so I'm sure that has something
to do with how we look at things. I had the pleasure to work on both coasts
as well as much of Europe and I really don't think that your location has
much to do with the way cinematographers work.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:04:29 AM)
My background is basically independent filmmaking and that means there's not
a lot of money to work with and that doesn't make a difference if you're
in New York or L.A.. The key is really about finding a relationship with
a director you can work with and communicate with and tell a story together.
James (May 8, 2004 11:04:43 AM)
Can you talk about Night on Earth? Were you working with the same crew
in each city? What were some of the challenges and systematic differences between
shooting in the different cities?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:05:40 AM)
Night on Earth was a good example of low budget filmmaking because there
were only six of us traveling as a company making the film. We hired additional
crew members in each city we stopped at. We traveled with the director, producer,
sound recordist, gaffer, grip and myself. Everyone else was picked up locally.
Because much of the story takes place inside moving taxi cabs, it was a real
challenge for us. We had to solve the same basic problems of camera car mounts
and lighting rigs in five different countries.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:07:27 AM)
It became a real cross cultural experience. I remember in Paris when we mentioned
car mounts a crew member said they had a special speed rail rigging system
but it's all metric
so you have to be able to adapt to our system to use our equipment. In Rome
they didn't use speed rail or metal in the car mounts, but they used wood.
So we learned a lot from them. And when we got to Helsinki, they didn't use
car mounts so we had to bring everything. It was a good educational experience
for everyone.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:09:35 AM)
One of the other things I did on Night on Earth was to try and give
each city a different character by changing the colors and quality of the light
by changing the light on the actors in the taxis. When we were scouting, I
found a color palette for the nighttime for each of the cities and tried to
reproduce them on each of the actors in each of the cities.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:11:07 AM)
The other thing we did was use a little bit of diffusion on the lens that was
different in each city to try and give each one a little different feeling.
It was also difficult because we were never able to light city streets so
we had to choose locations with a certain amount of light already, which
was never very much. Then we had to light our actors in the taxis to match
the city lighting on the streets. It meant that the whole film was photographed
at f 1.5 on the lens.
Tomfocus (May 8, 2004 11:12:39 AM)
When you get a new script, read it and go in for an interview, how far to you
go in your discussion of an approach with a director/producer. Do you go
in with lots of ideas or take a more subtle tack to find out what some of
their intentions are or other visual influences may be before going out on
a limb with your own ideas?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:13:23 AM)
That's a very good question. When I go for a job interview, I try to determine
what the director wants out of the interview. Are his or her questions going
to be more technical in nature or more about story and character or about
the logistics of the shoot or special effects?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:15:39 AM)
I try and gauge from there. Job interviews are very difficult because you have
an hour or so to see if you and the director would like to get married for
a while. It puts a lot of stress on both parties. One thing you must do before
the interview is learn everything you can about the director – what other
films they've done or written, so you're knowledgeable. I think you have
to go into the interview with an opinion about the strengths and weaknesses
of the script and be able to speak frankly about your feelings on the characters.
I think directors appreciate hearing your feelings about the strengths and
weaknesses of the story.
Graham (May 8, 2004 11:17:12 AM)
Mr. Elmes, would you say that the plan you have in your head in pre-production
is usually what comes out on screen, or does your practical work on set force
you to change your plan very often? Do you find this difference more when
working with shorter pre-production schedules on Music Videos and Commercials
verses working on Features? How important is your ability to improvise?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:19:32 AM)
I find that my plans always change no matter how thoroughly I make them in the
beginning. There are always changing in the actual shooting. I think that's
part of the natural process.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:20:25 AM)
I find that when I go into a film with the director we spend a great deal of
time scouting locations and planning how a scene will play in a certain location
and even perhaps bringing the actors to the scene and blocking them. But
then on the day of shooting, something inevitably changes. Like it's raining
and you can't see the windows or you're shooting away from the windows and
it's night and you had never planned on being there that late. So you have
to be flexible and you always have to have alternatives.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:22:08 AM)
When I'm scouting, I'm generally sure my solution will work perfectly and I'll
never have to use alternatives. Last summer, I shot a movie that we ended
up shooting a lot of the day scenes at night and we had to find very creative
ways to make it appear that sunlight was coming in the window, either through
sheer curtains or set walls or Venetian blinds. We could shoot toward the
windows even in the dead of night. So you do have to be creative and think
on your feet.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:23:30 AM)
In my experience with commercials, the schedules are shorter and you tend to
be more on and off schedule so there's less need for change. In addition,
everyone 's agreed on the look so there's less change involved. On features
everyone's more flexible. And on music videos anything goes.
Eric A. (May 8, 2004 11:24:54 AM)
You mentioned how Sven Nykvist’s films influenced you. Can you recommend some
of his films that would be good for film students to watch, and what should
we look for?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:25:39 AM)
A couple of my favorites were The Seventh Seal and Hour of the Wolf.
Certainly because of Sven's work, but also the stories and his clear relationship
with Ingmar Bergman. But I think there are many other European films of that
era that also influenced me. Early films of Fellini and Antonioni are very
rich and wonderful visually, particularly with the advent of color films. When
they switched from black and white to color films, they were very rich and
you can learn from all of them.
tom r. (May 8, 2004 11:27:27 AM)
I was excited by the way shot and reverse patterns crossed the line in Hulk.
You mentioned the idea of disorientation as part of the intent since you don't
know where the character "is coming from" emotionally as well as
in screen geometry, but also that when the characters "crossed the line" emotionally,
they did on screen as well. Was the planning that specific, or is that just
my reaction? Thanks.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:28:35 AM)
I think that's a good and very observant question. I think the process for
Ang and I evolved as we went along on the set. We had the idea of crossing
over the line in the scene but we never were quite sure how to do it since
it was going against the rules so there was a certain amount of experimentation.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:30:14 AM)
The first time we did it was the scene in which Gen. Ross interrogates Bruce
Banner. We wanted to create a very disorienting feel to the scene and sometimes
the camera moved around wildly around the characters. But what worked better
was working with 2 cameras – one over each shoulder – which gave us the ability
to jump cut between shots on the same actor. It was kind of experimental
at the time and it required shooting quite a bit of footage to get the right
technique.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:32:13 AM)
Once we found the technique that worked and found you could edit it together
we took advantage of it as we shot additional scenes in the film. So while
we made it up as we went along, we got better at it as we went along.
CineRam (May 8, 2004 11:32:17 AM)
I've heard it said the DPs are a combination of artist and engineer. Where
do you fall in that range?
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:32:59 AM)
I'm probably the last person who should judge that because I'm not very objective.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:38:54 AM)
What I offer as a cinematographer is a combination of technical knowledge of
photo chemistry and optics as well as some training as an artist and some
art history and history of still photography. How all these elements get
mixed together is what makes me different than you and that's what makes
each cinematographer an individual. I don't think there's any right way to
be trained as a cinematographer. It's a combination of what everyone has
inside of them that makes it work.
Fred Elmes (May 8, 2004 11:39:56 AM)
I want to thank everyone here today for asking such great questions. It was
a real treat for me to talk to everyone and I look forward to doing it again
some time.
