QUESTION: You changed the shooting style on Hill Street Blues. That took a lot of courage coming onto a successful film show and changing the look.

FLINN: It wasn't big; it was subtle. Bill Cronjager started the show. He did a lot of handheld work, but they wanted a choppy look like a documentary. The changes I made were subtle. There was still a lot of movement, but I used dollies. It was smoother; a little less gritty.

OTHER: What is your style?

FLINN: What do you want? That's the thing. I like that reality look... if I can, I'm going for reality. I don't want to interrupt anything with the camera, in other words, if that story is good and I'm doing my job right, I should be the last thing you think about and talk about. And when you do, that's going to be a lot, that's the compliment for me. How about that shot. After it all. That's the compliment for me. Because if I don't interrupt you with the story, that's the big secret, not interrupting. A lot of time stories are weak, so we do things with cameras. We're making story points while we are trying to emphasis this with the camera, and I've lost that story point and I've lost the trigger of the story. I've lost that much dialog that could be the key, and is the key, I lost it because I tried to do this, I emphasized this and did that. So it can be as interrupting as hell. The idea is not to. My style is to use source a lot.

OTHER: If someone were to describe your signature in photography, how would they describe it?

FLINN: It's reality, it's source.

QUESTION: You've done everything though. Come to think of it, the first time I met you was before Hill Street on a Western mini-series.

FLINN: Yes, a four hour mini-series with Sam Elliot, a thing called Wild Times, and I did Gunsmoke (camera crew) for eight years, so I always loved Westerns. I grew up riding bulls and roping and having a lot of fun doing it, so I was into that stuff and I liked it. I played the macho thing, but having fun with it.

QUESTION: And that was all exteriors.

FLINN: Yes, and if you have the opportunity and I had, to be out there in the deserts, in the mountains, in the snow, the horses and the sunsets, it's a different kind of a world.

QUESTION: Hill Street Blues really defined a reality look on TV. Everybody was trying to get that natural, realistic look... But you didn't copy yourself, because your next show was Magnum, P.I., another copy, but really with more beautiful images.

FLINN: I really had the opportunity to go from ... from one side of the fence to the other. I am the luckiest guy because I had that opportunity. I had the opportunity of being in skid row, and then going into the most beautiful islands and the gardens in the world, that's what I think. I'm a lucky man. Not many guys you talk to have had that opportunity.

QUESTION: But it was still a natural look, just lusher.

FLINN: That's the fun. I see so many shows that come out with exteriors and they are over-lit, and you wonder why. Take that natural beauty and enhance it, but don't overpower it. Use the natural beauty. There's a way to use it. Guys are afraid to use it. Don't be. Go for it. Pull out those greens, those blues, make those things happen. You know, there's things ... like the western streets, the way the sun sets in this town. I think it's called Bronson, outside of Tucson . I was lucky, the sequence was just short enough to capture the whole thing, and like I said, all I did was just enhance it just a touch. I had people call me and say, 'my God, what did you do?' I said it was the Good Lord. It was a beautiful perfect crosslight and I used it, don't abuse it, use it.

QUESTION: John, is that something you are born with, or is it something you learn?

FLINN: Yes. If you are going to be there and you've got that Sunday and you've got that Saturday, go out there. If this is where you are going to be shooting for three or four days, go out there. You spend that whole day and walk where you're going, time it, you know the look. It's a lot of fun when you walk in there the next day, that Monday, and you say 'Gentlemen, I want to be here in a half an hour for this light, it's great' and they look at you like 'who do you think you are.' They don't know I spent two days walking it. Why? Because I care. Why? Because I want the best. I think this is really neat and I want everybody to be excited about it, and I see that and know that, they know I care. And I want you to care half as much as I do, and if you do, we're going to go. Just care half as much as I care and we're going to be going down the road. This is what we have to do to get there, why we're doing it.

QUESTION: Do the actors or actresses knows that you're preparing them?

FLINN: On one episode of Jake, we shot a program which was really a pilot, starring Ray Sharkey. Instead of shooting a pilot, they incorporated him into the show... it's a character introduction. You take that to the networks, and they say great, the pilot is done already, and then boom, you start shooting.  The first day, I don't know who he's working with all these years, but I'm explaining to him how I'm going to deal with this, the first time I met him, I haven't even worked with him before, never met him before, I'm in conversation, this is what I'm doing here. And the guy is looking at me, OK, OK, another sequence goes by, and boom, the thing. By the end of the day, only because I like to communicate, let people know what I'm doing, I don't make a showboat about it, very quiet, what I'm saying is what I'm saying, my message. The guys says, 'would you please do this'. I'm not even there twelve hours, that's a real compliment to me, a real compliment. It's sharing, and what it was, he and I, all of a sudden, he said how do you want this look, I said a little 3/4 here, you pick up that light, right on. When you have something like that, how do you lose? You have a guy that knows how to do all the acting, but now he really wants that light just right. If you play this guy up, he looks terrible. There are ways of making this guy look more macho, he's got a real face, so you enhance that. You take that and you make him look rougher, he knows that, that he looks better, they're going nuts. I'm a hero, I make him look like a beauty, he's not a beauty, but you've got to know that going in. I let him know that. There's no frosting on the cake on this one for us, we're going to go this way.

QUESTION: Are we seeing a renewal of the Western? We've got Far and Away and several other pictures coming up that are very Western oriented.

FLINN: If you are going to be shooting a Western and working a lot of stock, a lot of rolling stock, you've got to have the right people that know how to handle it. This is where, again, having the right wrangler to run that area because nothing is going to save you bucks like you can't believe. If I go in and I say OK, I'm going to get this guy who says he's a cowboy and he's going to get me all these horses and stuff. Well, ten hours into the day and I'm trying to get some people to ride down the street, and the horses are jumping and doing this or that, it's costing me nothing but money, I can't show that to any producer, so I have to wrap right there and say, "get me some horses and people who know what they are doing", and that's going to take three or four days or maybe a week to get the proper stock into that show, to get them to look like they do this every day, so it's really important to get to the bottom and get yourself, maybe I should say the top, find me the best wrangler in town, a relative of the best regular in town.  When I say I want the rolling stock, I want the best wagons in the business, and I know they're all in top shape and they're good men. They don't have to have them at the livery stable being checked out every other day because the wheels are tearing apart, the rims and coming off and I've got a buckboard that's falling in half. So, preparation again is key to success. By making that thing work good. To know where to place that action, to use the stock with the action. Not to be afraid of shooting at night for your exterior nights, and then we can do the day. What we did then, people were afraid of nights, 'nights are going to take us forever, why do nights'. If I can shoot all of downtown L.A. and have three or four lights ... if I can go out in the desert and I can create a feeling of moonlight where you're not going to question where that light is going to come from, I can do that, make this happen. If I can light this town and have fun lighting this town, and you believe that you want to walk right into that town, walk right into that film, that's how much you like that feeling of that town. We can do anything. But it's having the right script, it's knowing where to get in and out of the action and it's having the right people doing it, and having some transportation, people knowing what it's going to take to transport this or that, having things together. You'd be surprised, you can be some places where everything is scattered. My guys have everything together, everything is easy, everything is right on the money, when we're ready to roll, we're rolling. Everybody is loaded up and we're going, it's knowing how to move that company in an hour and not two hours or two and a half hours. To wrap it, load it, leave it, unload it in an hour, and I can go twenty miles and have that done. I've got guys who know how to do that. It's everybody working together, it's sharing.

QUESTION: You take the shows you've been doing for the last ten years and everyone of them has been a big hit... all had been given different types of shows. The common denominator is always relationships between two people, two or three people. Victoria Hammel and Furillo on Hill Street and...

FLINN: That was such a beautiful face there, you didn't have to do too much to enhance it, with her eyes, she could say so much. Again that communication was there, this is what we're going for, this is what it is. She knew exactly what you meant, she knew the reaction and how to play it.

QUESTION: Are you finding today that people not only want it good; it has to be cheap?

FLINN: Yeah, they want to do it cheap. Agfa has called them and said 'we'll give you this and that', and all of a sudden when they get it, it's a stock number from this and a stock number from that, and it's gone. This is what you did years ago, we all remember that, Fuji was this, Fuji was that, next thing you know, you put in on a screen ... the green here was overwhelming... we have no blue there, what's going on? There was nothing but inconsistencies. That's what happens. It's the same with the equipment, we get this and it doesn't work ... if somebody gives me a camera, an old BNCR let's say, and I'm getting it real cheap but it hasn't been taken care of properly... you know what I'm talking about? Well, if don't you have guys who can tear it apart, put this and that, and make all this thing happen and you have a breakdown on the set, what do you do, it's going to cost you four or five hours. But who are you going to blame? Yourself, because you are the one who made the stupid mistake. This is what you're going to do and this is the kind of film you're going to use and you're going to have it processed at this guy's place... they have a turnaround of 10-20% a month, people don't care, they're not making their money, they're going to come and they're going to go and they don't care a damn bit about your project, they don't care anything about it at all. They care about 'if you pay me a little bit more, I'll stick around, but if you're not going to pay me I'm out of here.' So in the end the picture doesn't get made, or it doesn't get finished, or it does at a cost, had they gone the right way they would have saved themselves so much money.

QUESTION: Are you saying that a lot of things done to save costs don't save costs?

FLINN: There are smarter ways to save costs... an hour episode, now that's a pretty high budget, and it's wiping out the hour long show... if they want to bring back hour television, what they're going to have to do is stop needless stupid spending, wasting... they are giving eight titles to producer/writers on a show, that's eight, you've got a producer, a line producer, an executive producer, a co-executive producer, two executive producers, all this list of people, and you might see them three or four times a year on a set. They're up in that office, and what do they do? They might get in a room with three or four other writers and they might throw this around and throw that around, but what makes them a producer, and why is he getting that kind of money? What elevates him from $5,000 a week to $8,000 a week because he's put in as a producer, come on. And these actors are getting $100,000 an episode. James Arness was earning about $100,000 when we went down, but he was 21 years on the air and he could talk, and he was the greatest guy in the world to work with.  You've got to have somebody upstairs who's got the you-know-what to say, 'excuse me, you want to do this show and you want to be a part of this, this is the way it is and this is how much money you're going to get... we're going to take your $120,000 her and you'll work for $80,000.'

QUESTION: Off the top of your head, of the $1.4 million, what percentage is below the line? Did you see that story in the Times a few weeks ago?

FLINN: And they're still trying to say it's us, I heard about it. It's just so stupid, somebody got that article out there. You can talk to people in your neighborhood and they say, 'you guys are all making too much money,' but they don't know that I'm out there 14 to 16 hours a day busting my you-know-what, you're involved, doing dailies, doing this or that, then I come home and I study for another hour and a half and I've got a 3/4inch cassette, and I go through everything I shot yesterday, and I do that, I demand that of myself, that's my job. I'm involved. I eat it and I sleep it and I'm very fortunate that I have a family that goes along with it, you've got to.

QUESTION: You didn't answer my question, what do you thing the percentage is? They said 40%.

FLINN: Oh, come on.

QUESTION: That's what the Times said 40% was below the line.

FLINN: No way. Well, hopefully we'll get out the right new real quick.

QUESTION: You've had 10 straight years of hits, Hill Street , Magnum and now Jake. Do you take it for granted?

FLINN: No, I never do. A while ago, a producer contacted me about a movie, and he said, remember what you did on Hill Street ? Remember this ... and this guy went through scenes that we did and said he wanted to see this or that. You're going to do this and that's what I want, the guy felt so good about knowing that he was going to get this look. That's kind of neat. He was going back ten years. He was telling me what I did ten years ago with a sequence. That's real compliment to every man and woman on that crew. A real compliment, because everybody put out, everybody wanted the best and everybody did the best, and we got reactions. Acting is reacting. Later on, when you talk about how that look ... wasn't that beautiful when I came over the hill ... they were in a buckboard and talking ... did you see when they came into town, the lights, the way it looked ...  They were talking about what we all do. You've got to take it personal, you sat there and you put it into it. Take that pat on the back and say 'yes'.

QUESTION: Is there kind of a crew mentality that people want it to be good?

FLINN: Yes, you're all in it together. I've got people that feel this is special every week... I've got guys that show up, say they're called at 6:30 , downtown L.A. .. they are there at 6:00, getting things out of the truck and ready. I say, 'what are you guys doing, the call is 6:30 '. That's a great attitude.

The idea is that, well, I get excited about shots. When we have our next rehearsal and set up our next shot, everybody is attentive, we have fun. We know where to get in and out with the jokes, we break up the day, believe me, we ride each other and have fun and games. We keep the reality side of it going with what we get to do, we get to play. So everybody is involved and everybody knows what's going on.

I was directing and shooting a sequence a few weeks ago and it was real rough for me to do. It was a guy who was beating this woman and killed her. Now, I've got some real strong girls working with me that had to leave the set... I saw one girls with a pillow over her head and crying, so I had to take her and love her and assure her, but it did something to her that she was real uncomfortable with. She might have been too dramatic, I don't know, but we crossed her line and that wasn't fair, so she had to get our love and feeling brought back. And she appreciated that. They tell me I've got to do this, but I did it with taste. It sounded terrible and the camera is there, I'm seeing a guys face and his hand going back and forth and you see her head go, you've got to understand the editing. But everybody was upset, it was a real tough sequence to shoot, it took me about three hours. When I got done, everyone was in a killer sweat, but they went, 'Yes'. They were proud of what we did because we did it with class, from top to bottom. We showed everyone what we were going to do and how we were going to do it.  We got it and we did it with taste. It'll be on the 22nd and I'm real proud of what we did, and again it was a whole nucleus of positive. Everybody on that crew wanting the best. Under those circumstances, still wanting the best, and that's what I try to get. I tell them what kind of show it's going to be, I explain to my crew, they're the most important people to me, we all work together and make each other look good every day. All of us. It's Show and Tell, it's the very basics, here's the picture, here's what we're going to do. If you haven't had the opportunity to read the script take it home and read it tonight, you've got to know where we are, what I'm talking about, the attitude, the mood, the look, the feeling. If you care and you want to play, then play. If you don't, get out. If you want to play games and do other things while you're doing this, you're out of here. There's a time and a place for that, never around what I do. There's a big point about this, but going in I make it real plain what we all do and how neat it is and what an honor it is to do it. We're special. I get to put it on the screen, when you see it, it's kind of neat. Seeing is believing.

QUESTION: Are you saying that the energy you put into making a film shows up on the screen?

FLINN: Absolutely, and if you haven't got that, it's going to show in that film. You have to have leadership, you've got to have positive people, people that want to have the best for that moment in time and space, to make it anything they can, better than it was yesterday. You keep wanting that and you keep doing that, that means that even the words will get better the next day, the look is going to get get better the next day because people care. This is what it takes to make a picture.

QUESTION: It's got to be really tough for you guys, whether it's movies or television. It keeps moving. You keep having to shoot for a higher target...

FLINN: I've got three TV's in my living room... I'm my own toughest critic. I'm always watching to see who is doing what, and how it works. When I was doing Paper Dolls, I said to the producer, 'if you don't get these guys on the wire right now...' I was on a three way call with the producer and telecine, and we're doing this on the air while I'm on the phone. We're changing the color and I'm going nuts. I had beautiful high fashion stuff and beautiful ladies and they're washing them out and that's not what I had in my mind, it was a killer, when you're shooting TV, you're shooting TV. You've got to fight to establish the look until they throw you out or they finally say they're sick of us and they promise this is how it will be. I did the same thing with Hill Street Blues. I fought tooth and nail for the look that I wanted, and I got it. But if I wasn't working, I was at NBC, and I was a pain in the ass. But I had to be a pain in the ass because I wanted it right. Everybody works their butt off, all week long. On that show, we were working 75-80 hours a week.

QUESTION: Do you have any control over telecine?

FLINN: As much as I can. It depends on your producer on TV. I had an assistant director on one show, who didn't know how to do background crosses, and now he's an executive producer. That bothers me a lot. That's what has happened to this business.. there are a lot of people who don't really care.

QUESTION: But there are exceptions?

FLINN: Sure, it was neat to hear this producer say 'this is the look I want, what you did on a show ten years ago'. This is the kind of guy you want to hook up with. Because they're right there with you, and they're not going to go anything less than what you want. Like these people who want to do this movie Billy Royal.

They speak the language. And anything I want, anything, anything. They won't let me step out of this other role. They want me to do two roles in this thing, only because of how I'm going to work with these people. They know that. And it just happens to work with this kind of a project, and it'll be real interesting.

QUESTION: Let's go back. How did you end up do that first year of 5-O in Hawaii ?

FLINN: Off the record, true story, I heard there was an opening for a cameraman, and called my agent, and asked, how are we doing, what's happening? "We're busy right now.' I said I'd like to know what's going on, I'm John Flinn, and I work as a Director of Photography, and you represent me. He said, I'm busy, I'm trying to find a cameraman to go to Hawaii .' True story, on my children's life. I said, do me a favor, would you call them and tell them I'm available, thank you. I hung up. And five minutes later, I get a call, "You're leaving tomorrow at 12:00 ". Six years later. And here's someone trying to tell me to leave them alone, they were trying to find a cameraman, what did they think I did. I didn't know it would go from that to directing, so a lot of things happened, from that one phone call. One phone call. Made some lives, saved some lives. That one phone call. But when you get people like that. They put you on a chalkboard. God's truth, that's how it works, and that's wrong. My agent today and I go back for years, we have fun with that. He's a special person in this business, he knows what's happening. Besides all that my friendship with Mike, away from the business, it's a special friendship, he's a special man, a good guy, he knows what we're doing, none of that phony baloney stuff. Straight shooting. You need for somebody to get out there and get around. That's the only way your name is going to get around, by the agent. That guy can't go into each studio, or these buildings they call studios, and go into these complexes and give them the resume and try and sell himself. That's what the agent is for, and that's what he does... if he does it... if he hasn't got a big stable. If he's got a big stable of 150 guys or 100 guys, he's not out there hunting for you. He's going to get the guy getting top dollar, and get that guy working first. He's going to work his way down the ladder, and believe me, if you're on the bottom of the ladder, you're not going to work... maybe if you're fortunate, one or two jobs a year. Because everybody who's going to put more money in his pocket is going to work before you do.

QUESTION: I know that you're doing both directing and shooting. How did that start?

FLINN: I think because of the opportunities that I've had in shows like Hill Street Blues. Just my own background, the situations I was in growing up, and what I've put myself in, and things I can relate to. I had the opportunity to see a lot of movies being made. Whenever I worked on a crew, I always read the script, and imagined myself acting, reading the lines, directing, doing all of the jobs, and then watching how other people did it.

QUESTION: I think in some ways Jake and the Fatman has to be a harder Hill Street or Magnum. The situation changes every week.

FLINN: It does. When I'm on that camera and it's happening, it's all going through the same thing, it's a flow. When I'm working with the actors, I know what I have with this camera, I know what I have with this film. That's the neatest thing in the whole world, I know what that film will do. The greatest thing about it is I know, I get to do my own little test every shot. I get to add something, do this, do that, anything I want, and I get to see that result the next day. And I can take that result, I can put something in that corner of the frame, and that corner of the frame is going to be my lead in tomorrow or the next day, because that was my test, I can take that and see it the same way I saw it, but now it's just a little bigger. I can play with it, I've got room. I can go on this side of the fence or that, and I'm still looking good, real comfortable. I hope I'm making sense.

QUESTION: Sure, you're talking about what you add to a film as a cinematographer by always pushing the boundaries.

FLINN: Where I can explain to people, I have actors come in and explain why I'm using that crosslight or something else. I get into the story, it is a story, this is what the man wrote, here is your character, this is how it is, this is where you're coming from, where you're going, this is you're journey, and you have so much time to do it. And that's the exciting thing. You have that much fun to do it, and I have fun to get that from you and put it on this film, here it is, I get to do the whole story, so I'm watching every move you make. Some actors might think they'll be neglected because I've got the lights, the camera and all that. Uh uh. It's all second nature. I get to take him through this journey, and if you think I'm going to take you down the wrong road, you're wrong. We're all coming together, we're all flowing right through this eyepiece and into that lens and onto that film. That box right there, that's an audience of millions of people. I'm watching everything you're doing. You get them secure with that. Most of them don't care, they become too mechanical. You've got to love it, you've got to express, to have the feelings.

QUESTION: You take a lot of risks.

FLINN: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: That's interesting, talk about that a little bit.

FLINN: I took Kodak and (the original) 5293 in the old days, and I did a test, a 1000 foot, and I did it with two foot candles, three foot candles, 1500 ASA... if I can do this here and it looks great... if it looks that good here, can you imagine how great it will look if I take that and I emphasize that here and pick it up back there... by doing that, and people seeing those results, I have representatives from Eastman come onto the set and asked if they could take the existing unexposed film off the camera. I asked why. They said they thought I was tricking them. I wasn't tricking anybody. So I had them unload the film, gave them what was left on the magazine. All I was doing was taking chances... Just basics, nothing somebody else couldn't do, but I just did it.

QUESTION: It seems like when you are successful, there has got to be a temptation not to mess around with it.

FLINN: I did chance it. I said that if they would just watch for a couple seconds they would see where I'm coming from, it's still going to hold the dramatics, I want the dramatics to come in more than you do, because of Hill Street Blues, the ensemble of 15 characters, and story after story, give me a chance .. and they did, and I went for it. And I stretched it, and I had fun with it. People would ask me what I was doing. I was doing what I know this film would do. When we lost the 93 stock ... it was perfect, I didn't want them to touch it. I had people come from everywhere to look at dailies. Why would anybody want to change anything, when it's working? But, I've shot millions of feet, I've never had a problem, because everybody cared. If I haven't got an answer, I've got ten other guys trying to answer, and I always got an answer. You get to learn something new about it every day. See how I work?

QUESTION: I understand you are getting ready to both direct and shoot a feature? That's another kind of risk-taking.

FLINN: It's like I've been an athlete all my life, you play ball, you got to play, you want to be first string, to be really good, and you love it so you want to play every day. I like to play every day. I don't want to play once or twice or three times a year. I want to play every day. Does that make sense?

QUESTION: It's true that you going to shoot and direct?

FLINN: They want me to do both.

QUESTION: How did that happen?

FLINN: They (the producers) watched me work on Hill Street , they watched me do some things, and they called me up out of no where and said, 'we've been looking for you.'

QUESTION: That's really interesting.

FLINN: They called me up and said they had a project to do, and they weren't going to do it if I didn't do it. So, I met with them.

QUESTION: That's like an actor or actress ... I see that more and more, directors of photography getting cast that way.

FLINN: Absolutely. Two years ago, I had just gotten back from Hawaii ... a writer-producer with Jake, Bernie Kowalksi, and I just got back from Hawaii , and he got a call from Nashville , Tennessee and from this guy who wanted to open up movies for their cable television. We were going to be the first ones, Nashville Beat. All of a sudden, the two of us are on a plane. He calls me one day after we got back from Hawaii and said 'let's go scout this thing down in Nashville .' We got down there and they told me it was going to be non-union, this and that, next thing I know, we're down there and scouting again, and we're putting this little picture together. We put it together, we got all my boys, we turned the whole thing Union , and they were thanking us, because we came in a day under. That was two years ago. Those things happen.

QUESTION: What do you think is going to happen in cinematography, look at what's happened in the last ten years, can you imagine what the next decade will be like?

FLINN: That part, that worries me a lot, but then again it doesn't, because there's one thing you're not going to do. Once you break that line of fantasy... tape is one thing, tape is a step into reality, to me. I need the fantasy, that's why people look at films, why they like them... it's a fantasy, and that look is a fantasy. We relate to that as a story, fantasy... This is how I look at it anyway, what do I know. I don't want it looking anything like the 6:00 news. This is a story, a fantasy, that's what it is, a movie. Somebody wrote this and people said these words, and there's music, it's a fantasy. You're taking me through this whole thing. But if you throw it right in my face, I don't want anything to do with it. You don't want to mess with film, never. Film is always going to be film. If you make it any better, you take the technology too far and you have people step out of it, and too much of this other stuff, the biggest actor in the world who can't say two words right, you get into those things, What's his name? Arnold Schwarzenegger, he's the biggest well known actor in the world. You take all the effects and do all that stuff, that's OK, it works and it's great, but people are looking at gimmicks. You're shoving it down my throat, special effects, it's too much, too much. If I can turn on the camera right now and get exactly what my eye sees without doing a thing, that's kind of neat.

QUESTION: How does that happen. Do you see a picture like that as an instinctive thing?

FLINN: Right. I look at this, and ask myself, how do I enhance it?

QUESTION: Take this room, what would you do?

FLINN: First of all, get a little bit more depth back there, and enhance those people back there a bit, a bit, and pick up that area back there where the station is, put a back light there, right behind that beam, you never see it. Backlight the people so I have heads. Behind this beam here, put another backlight, backlight, backlight, crosslight, crosslight, crosslight, cross, cross, OK.

QUESTION: OK, why did you do all that?

FLINN: I'm taking this, what I'm seeing here and I'm enhancing it. See how this is struggling right here, see how dull they are out there? OK, I pick up a highlight, the whole thing, turn up the lanterns a pinch more, and hide all this here, and now I pick up some faces. I've got a half light on people coming this way and that way, and a source coming from that wall there. When I introduce this, that's my lead in and then I come into this light here, it's way overlit, use a top light and come right back into the crosslight.

QUESTION: That's really interesting, John. So, what you said about crew and keeping a crew together, that's so you can talk shorthand with these guys so they know ..

FLINN: Yes, they understand me. Am I making myself clear?

QUESTION: Yes, I'm just verifying what you're saying because every time I think I understand something, I make a fool of myself. So, you've got this instinct and experience that a cinematographer has that let's you come into a room, and you know the script and you're going to do all the things you just said, do that, and you can talk shorthand with this crew because you've managed to keep them together, and that is what gives you the time to do the art part of it, right?

FLINN: It is, because everybody knows. Let me give you an example. We are going to start at that table there and come right back to them, we'll bring somebody in from that doorway back there, they come in and we dolly back, and let's say we're going to bring a two-shot to this table here. We dolly back and get into that area there, OK, I want the fireplaces going if that's going to be my shot, make sure I got a fire in there, that's the first thing I say when I come into this room. Make sure I have a fire, so I get a permit to turn the fireplace on. I turn it on and I see that, see this glass back on, all the glass partition back there, I am going to put colors on one glass and maybe a half NP for a golden glow, I'll put that behind that, and behind the other partition, so it's a real pretty backlight through the glass right there. So I bring people in, now behind that I got backlight, backlight, and cross, cross, cross.  Make a little dolly move into here and sit down two people, I've got two people sitting down, so I've got a backlight like this, and they're coming in like that and it goes into a nice two shot right here, just enhance this a little bit. But already I've lit the glass back there, I've got a fireplace going, I've got backlight, I've lit the station over there. So, I walk in and see it, and this is what I do. Now the guys know, OK, if I'm going to be here and I'm going to be shooting this way, what's the best way to cable. We can't come in from here, so the cable will be over there, come right around here and put it against the wall, you'll never see it, so those guys know exactly where to put the cable. This is where I'll be shooting, that's my feed wall back there, I'm never going to be seeing over there, I'm going to be shooting back into that fireplace with her close-up over here, I'm going to take this table and move it down and reverse it this way and give myself more depth, because you've never seen this wall before, so now I'm shooting that table all the way up there so I've got a lot of depth behind this guy here. So instead of having this one table here, you're going to have four tables, you're not even going to know. So, I'm trying to add depth to that and color by the fire, color by adding the backlighting of those partitions, the glass walls. Everybody knows now what they've got to do. And that production manager, the assistant director, better know. What was the first thing I said? Get the fireman. Because they won't let me turn that fire on unless I have one and I have to wait around for an hour to get a permit, for two hours to get the shot we talked about. See what I mean. Preparation is the key to success. You've got to be thinking about it all the time. You asked me about a sequence, I just did it.

QUESTION: That's amazing.

FLINN: That's a movie. And it's not the six o'clock news, its a fantasy, it's happening, its a story, this is how it starts, and this is where we're taking it.

QUESTION: You make it sound very elegant.

FLINN: Yes, and it is. Just give people a piece of film and have them look at it. Show them a script and put a piece of film on top of that. All this to go to the movies. This is what we do, and we try to do it the very best. This is why we do it... we love what we do. You've got to be a survivor in this business. Sometimes it's down, sometimes ups. Down much more than the ups, but you've got to get there, you've got to do it. OK, if I can't do this, I'll go back and I'll do this, I did that for a long time. I went back and did this or that. But I still knew the road I wanted to take. I want to take that road and nobody is going to take me off it either. I've just begun.

QUESTION: Somebody recently told me there were 295 made for TV movies made last year, and 400-500 feature films. So there's more of this 16 mm reality or whatever it is, BetaVision, but there are four networks now, there didn't used to be four networks. There's probably more shooting going on now than in the Golden Age in Hollywood .

FLINN: I talked to some guys at Panavision, and they told me that 70% of it was out of the town, and look at the waste. Again, let me get back to Cimino, you have a Heaven's Gate deal... do you know the projects on the shelf that could have been Gone With The Wind, the projects on the shelf that were next that never ever got off that shelf all because of that mistake that man made, you can only blame him. How can anybody do what that man did and get away with it? The incompetence at the home base, total incompetence, and that man's indulgence into stupidity, how else can you say it. That's the best example of how Hollywood went to Hell.

QUESTION: You're feelings about this industry are very strong.

FLINN: What's important is he information I want to get across here is for us to have the writer, he has his idea, and puts it on the paper, and the director, and we, the directors of photography, get to take all that and bring that to life on film, and the only thing I have, the word consistent is a big word, you're talking day-to-day shooting and everything I've done, it's all consistent, I just want to get that, somehow in proper speech, how to be consistent in this profession.

QUESTION: Consistency is important because that is what allows you to take the chances?

FLINN: Exactly, I know, it's so comfortable, so second nature, that it's the last thing in the world I think about, that's how good I feel about it, I can walk in and I know what I have over here, that in the camera, there's nothing to worry about, it's a done deal. I can concentrate on other things and that's exactly what I do. So to have that consistency, for me and for everybody else, how do you beat that? How do you beat the perfect consistency of what I'm used to, it's perfect, we haven't had any problems.

First of all you've got to have plans, and know what we're all talking about and knowing where you can go with it, with the different stocks, but the thing is to have that feeling of second nature, it's the greatest thing in the world because it gives you the opportunity to enhance what's already there for you.

... year after year .. once I know he's got this level, I just boost him, a little bit more, I know it's there ... and all of a sudden everybody is cooking and that's what you love, and everybody is seeing the juices flowing every day, everybody is there loving it, and that's what we got.

QUESTION: When you first started directing, you directed a Magnum or two, right?

FLINN: A couple of them.

QUESTION: Do you always shoot when you direct?

FLINN: Yeah ... no, no, no, it was fun, I had Lloyd Ahern come over and do the first one I did, a buddy of mine, we came up the road together, in fact he just did a feature over here with Roy Hill, doing very good, but he had just started as a cameraman, Lloyd, and I thought it would be perfect to do it together. And the next one I did, I got Dick Rawlings, Sr. who helped me immensely coming up the ladder, and I had him come over and we worked together on another Magnum I did. He had a real nice way about him, he was a real leader on the set and respected, just a real nice gentleman. Did some nice shows, the one in London , he did Charlie's Angels, he did Doris Day forever. But the ones over here, with Jake, I've done my own.

QUESTION: That's kind of unusual.

FLINN: It's just one of those things, it's working, and I've had people say ... this is second nature, this is easy and it works, and people said to me that 'we couldn't see it done another way now', because of the way it happened, they like that flow. Anybody else could do the same thing.

QUESTION: I think everybody is different, you can take the same script and same actors and you will have ten different movies.

FLINN: Well, I agree with that. You got to want it. As a director you're answering a hundred questions a day, but you're so in tune and you want so bad for it all to work. And you know, as soon as they come up, you have the answer for them, because that's your baby, and it's easy to answer that question... it's easy to show them why and how and where it's going because that's yours, and you know what you're going to do and you know the look. I know that going in. It's fun. I go find these locations, they're great, everybody is excited, I find a building with the right kind of windows so I can have that stuff coming through. I can be in this area rain or shine, and I can still light this building the way I want it lit and see it all day long. This is what I can do. I have that advantage because of the knowledge that I have, that I've been working with for years, I get to put that into the direction of the film, to make it all work, and it does.

QUESTION: I'll bet you have a difficult time handling people in this industry who don't share your strong feelings for this work?

FLINN: I remember a show, it wasn't even mine, where the director was shooting an interior on the tenth floor, looking out a window, over a character's shoulder... what he sees tells you what's in his mind... you can see cars and this and that, but they are all blown out. What was he thinking? Why go on location up to the tenth floor so you can shoot out a window, and then not see anything? He called it art. I wanted to grab him by the throat, and drag him to a museum, and tell him to show me a picture like that. I get frustrated with people who don't understand or appreciate that.

QUESTION: Even if you have the talent and the desire, it isn't that easy getting a break.

FLINN: You have to be in the right place at the right time. You don't know what's going to happen, and that's part of the excitement. I've had times when i feel like I'm absolute dirt; I'm never going to work again. Then, someone says, "John, can you be in New York on"... and it starts all over again. I've had that actually happen. I left three hours early just to make sure I made that plane. It's always exciting, starting something new. I demand that of myself and my crew. If i give less than 1000 percent, then I don't deserve to be doing this. I love walking away from a set anticipating seeing dailies tomorrow. that's what it's all about. Loving your job, and loving the people around you.

QUESTION: Having worked as a director, how do you define the relationship between that role and the cinematographer? 

FLINN: It's a collaboration. I never want the director to feel otherwise. I want him to feel that me and my crew are there for him. He knows what the flow of the show is about... he knows the actors, their ways and characters... he studies them. No one can share that with him. All the things I can do to make that work for him, i do. You have to help him. Sometimes I'll get a director, and he'll want a master, over-the-shoulder, close-up and cover shot of a scene. I'll tell him you don't need all of this..it's nice, but you need to knock some things out, or they'll come after you.  Most of them take it for what it's worth. Most of them realize they aren't going to come onto a show and change the look or the way people act. He knows the lighting is my job. I'll give him what he wants, but I'll clean it up and make Bill Conrad look great. That's what you do. The audience wants to see him.

QUESTION: On a show like Jake, do you ever have time to prep?

FLINN: You have to think ahead. You know the script, so you tell an actor don't shave for two days, because we are going to give him a harder look a couple of sequences ahead. You got to think about how the audience should see him. What's going to satisfy their pallet. Do you know what I mean? Maybe for the first half hour of a show, I won't come in close on a guy, or a woman. You get the audience thinking, I want to see that guy. Then, I'll fill the screen with their face.

QUESTION: You've got a reputation as a woman's DP.

FLINN: I love shooting woman. I love the way they look. It's just paying attention to details, that's all.

QUESTION: It must have been an interesting transition bring Jake from Hawaii to L.A.

FLINN: The look changes itself because of the contrast and depth.

QUESTION: What's the most difficult thing about shooting film for TV?

FLINN: Time. You shooting a scene in bright sunlight one day, and the next day it's overcast. So, you have to come in tighter and deal with matching the look. You can't wait for the sun. I went to more of a gritty look here. We're on the streets more. I'm playing it more down and dirty. It you are shooting in an alley downtown, that's natural. But, then we go to his home, and it's warm, bright and cheery. Mostly the locations changed the look of the show.

QUESTION: Is this mainly a one camera show?

FLINN: I'll keep two camera going as much as I can. It's giving you moments you'd lose. One camera is for masters, and the other for close-ups and cuts to close-ups. It's my best friend. it's no big thing. You just have to know where to get in and out with it.

QUESTION: What do you mean?

FLINN: The angles you shoot. If I'm shooting a master with backwalls, and a second camera is doing a tighter shot, you might need a cutter to break up the light. So, you have to watch it for both cameras, so it's not flat.  It's about angles, and doing a little cheating so you get a nice effect on a cut-away. It's not complicated. it just makes you think a little more. You should be doing that anyhow.  You've got seven or eight days to make a movie. You've got to give it 1000 percent effort. I've got to satisfy my taste and everyone else's There are 10,000 ways of making every shot.  You've got to pick the right one at the lowest cost.

QUESTION: But there's still a lot of production values, but give me an example.

FLINN: One episode opened with a summer night scene. Jake is driving home. It hot and muggy, and he's tired. I used a hot kicker, and a hot backlight on his cheeks, face, neck and the back of his head, so the audience can see the perspiration and feel the heat. You enhance the light with heat. We motivated this with street lamps and moonlight, and mixed both using gels. I had three Condors lighting the night. We created a bright moonlit night so they could see the neighborhood. We had maybe 5 to eight footcandles of front light, a 20 kicker coming around the side. I didn't want it to look lit. We were recreating reality. It depends on where you are, and how you play the moonlight. I wanted him in half-light. It's very natural. If you light him, it's like saying this is the star. Remember, it started with a concept a writer put on paper.

QUESTION: What happens?

FLINN: He hears a shot, and sees someone running, and chases them through a yard into a house. There's moonlight coming through a window. It's back-lit. There's a little golden glow from two porch lights. I bring the guy around a corner in three-quarter moonlight. There's a light coming from a kitchen or dining room. There's someone at the top of the steps in the shadows. He's backlit by moonlight, silhouetted. You can see a TV flickering in a room behind him. It looks like he's got a gun. The light from the dining room is glistening on the thing in his hand. The backlit from the moon is hitting him from the knees down. Jake thinks it's the person he was chasing, and shoots. He ends up killing a kid who had a TV remote control in his hands.

QUESTION: You were shooting in a house?

FLINN: Oh yeah, and the moon was from a Condor at a very high angle. That saved us a half an hour setting up a parallel.

QUESTION; Did you have a chance to scout that?

FLINN: No. I send my best boy. He comes back with pictures and diagrams.

QUESTION: Did you use two cameras in that situation?

FLINN: Oh yes, and I always kept them moving on tracks. It's a lot of stop and go. One camera is moving north to south and the other east to west. And I think I used a handheld Arriflex camera, too. My A and B camera are Panaflex. The Arri showed the audience the scene the way Jake saw it.  A little jumpy, some visual tension, looking into the moonlight. You can feel him thinking, is that a gun? Is he going to shoot? In an etchy sketchy situation like this, i'll use five footcandles as fill, and a back cross as key light.

QUESTION: How about shooting Bill Conrad?

FLINN: It's tough because of his chin, and you don't want a shiny light on his balding head because of the way it's shaped. You just don't draw attention to it. I try to shoot one side of his face. His face has great angles and shows his moods.

QUESTION: Do you use filtration?

FLINN: I use a Mitchell B to soften the look, and sometimes a fog, like in a dream sequence. We've got a bag of tricks like any show.

QUESTION: Do you think you'll do more directing?

FLINN: I really love what I do; I'm a shooter. I love being a shooter, but I also love directing. It's like getting to play on both sides of the fence. One reason i shoot when I direct is that I figure I can save 5 to 10 minutes per shot. I don't have to explain things to myself. If you average 32 to 35 shots a day, you've saving a lot of time.