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A Conversation with Robbie Greenberg, ASC was born in New York City and raised in the Bronx. He studied social theory at City College of New York. In 1969, Greenberg left New York and moved to San Francisco where he became involved with a group of young filmmakers who produced documentaries, pre-MTV concert films, and ultra-low budget features. He migrated to Los Angeles in 1975, seeking broader horizons as a visual filmmaker. His feature credits include such memorable films as Creator , Sweet Dreams and The Milagro Beanfield War . Greenberg earned consecutive Emmy and American Society of Cinematographers Outstanding Achievement Awards for Winchell and Introducing Dorothy Dandridge in 1999 and 2000, and a third Emmy nomination for James Dean in 2001. He recently completed Iron Jawed Angels , his third Home Box Office movie. ICG: Robbie, let's start by talking about where you grew up. GREENBERG : I was born in New York City, and raised in the Bronx. I come from a family that didn't have much money. We lived in a small, one-bedroom apartment. My brother, grandmother and I shared the bedroom, and my parents slept in the living room. My father was a kind of a Sunday photographer. He had a 35mm Nikon camera and a full complement of lenses. I was always trying to get my hands on his camera but it was his special passion and he was resistant to letting me in on the picture taking. My own passion had to wait. ICG: Were you a movie fan when you were growing up? GREENBERG : When I was a kid, Saturday matinees were a source of pure fantasy and entertainment for me. I had no dreams of being a filmmaker until I was in college where I hung out with artists and students who introduced me to the European New Wave Fellini, Antonioni, Godard and Truffaut. We practically lived at the Thalia, a small art theater on the Upper West Side. ICG: What put you on the path to filmmaking? GREENBERG : In 1969, I drove across the country with my best friend. My original plan was to go to San Francisco for the summer. Just before we left, I met a woman (Lisa Rich) who was also going to California for the summer. She was supposed to go to Santa Barbara, but she changed her plans and flew to San Francisco to meet me. We went for the summer and never came back. We're still together. That summer we lived in a rooming house in the Mission District where I worked as a carpenter's assistant while Lisa went to school. After the summer, we decided to remain in San Francisco and I started thinking about what was I going to do with my life. I had intended to go to graduate school, but decided to pursue my childhood interest in photography. ICG: How did you do that? GREENBERG : I sold my car, which was hard to part with it was a little 1965 MGB convertible a total dream car. I used some of the money to buy my first still camera a 35mm Nikkormat. Then, I enrolled in photography classes, so I could learn about basic composition, exposure, darkroom technique, and lighting. ICG: Were you self-taught or did you have mentors? GREENBERG : It was a combination of being self-taught and seeking out inspiration and information from other photographers I began to meet. After a while I felt like I was not getting the results I wanted. The photographs looked too ordinary to me. I had a friend who was an excellent still photographer and aspiring filmmaker. I told him that I wasn't satisfied with the results I was getting. He suggested that I look at the photographs of Edward Weston, Paul Strand, and Alfred Stieglitz - my favorite photographers upside down the way the photographers composed them on the ground glass of their view cameras. I began to study photography at its purest, without emphasis on the subject form without content, the relationship of light to dark, the interplay of graphic shapes within the frame. The first photograph I took after that was with a four by five view camera. The difference between that photograph and my past work was incredible, as least to my eye. ICG: When did you start shooting film? GREENBERG : A group of us worked in a studio in Emeryville (near Berkeley). My first job there was as an assistant editor (back in the days when we cut workprint on a Moviola with hand splicers). My pay was use of the darkroom and free dinners. We had a couple of 16mm cameras, an Éclair NPR and an ARRI S. We shot movies for anyone who had a script and could afford to pay for film and processing. I worked as an assistant cameraman, a gaffer and a grip. I'd do anything to be working on a film set. But, it became clear to me that I wanted to be the director of photography. It just felt good. It still feels good. I love the work. ICG: Were you still a movie fan at that time? GREENBERG : I was a serious movie fan. We spent endless nights at Berkeley's Pacific Film Archive immersing ourselves in everything from Hollywood classics to European cinema. Truffaut's films touched my heart the most. His work really made me want to be part of that kind of dramatic storytelling. ICG: What kinds of film opportunities existed in San Francisco for young filmmakers at that time? GREENBERG : I was shooting educational movies, documentaries for the US Park Service, some commercials, and a lot of rock-n-roll concert films. They were mostly 16 mm and shot on either Ektachrome ECO, a 25-speed film, or Ektachrome EF, a 125-speed news film that was very ugly. ICG: What was the next step for you? GREENBERG : Once it became clear to me that I wanted to be a cinematographer and work on visually dramatic films, I knew that I had to learn to master techniques of creating light on film. I was inspired and wanted to recreate on film the natural light I saw through my view camera and use it to enhance the narrative storytelling. ICG: Why did you move to Los Angeles? GREENBERG : I loved San Francisco. I lived there for six and a half years until I moved to Los Angeles in 1975. It became clear to me that if I wanted to shoot feature films, it was not going to happen in San Francisco. There were occasional independent films, but they were mainly soft-core pornography, biker or slasher movies. I got my first opportunity to shoot a 35mm feature film in 1973. It was an independent film called Brain Child . It made an effort to be something more than a horror movie. I don't think it was ever released. Reluctantly, I realized that Hollywood held greater opportunities for me to hone my craft and work with talented filmmakers. ICG: How open was Los Angeles to new talent like yourself? GREENBERG : Not very. In the first year, I shot music films for Warner Brothers with a number of their recording artists. Compared to today's music videos, they were pretty straightforward - the artists performed their songs and we filmed them as if they were concerts. I got to shoot a music film directed and starring George Harrison. Imagine working with one of the Beatles (in 1976) and having the film shown on Saturday Night Live . It was thrilling. But, I came to L.A. to work in feature films. And the town was like a closed shop to anyone who was not in the Union. ICG: How long did it take you to get into the Union? GREENBERG : In those days, even if your father was in the Camera local it was very tough to get in. I had to hire a labor lawyer. I was really naïve about the system and how it worked. One of the ways to get into the Camera local in those days was to get a job on a film that hadn't yet signed its union contracts. That was during the days of the roster system. Several directors offered me films but the local's business agent would tell them that he wouldn't sign a contract if I were to be the cinematographer. They had to hire someone already in the union and on the seniority roster. It was as simple as that. In those days, the union had that kind of clout and the producers backed off. Finally, in 1983 there was a regime change in the local and at the same time a very determined producer named Barney Rosenzweig hired me to do a television movie called This Girl For Hire. He brought me onto the job before he signed his union contracts and grandfathered me in. After eight years of struggle, I was finally going to be a union member. ICG: What were you doing to keep busy during those first eight years in Los Angeles besides the rock videos for Warner Bros.? GREENBERG : The first feature I shot in LA was Youngblood in 1976. It was directed by Noel Nosseck, who I shot an educational film for about a year before. Youngblood was done with very little money. If I remember correctly, the budget was $149,000. It was a story about African-American street kids trying to clean up the drug trafficking in their neighborhood. I shot other independent films, including Night Mother, Time Walker, and Wes Craven's Swamp Thing, which became a cult favorite. In 1979, I shot a science fiction film that was the first theatrical feature for PBS. It was called The Lathe of Heaven , based on a book by noted science fiction writer, Ursula LeGuin. It too became a cult classic and it was recently released on DVD. ICG: How did you cope with the roster system after you got into the Union? It still favored cinematographers who had seniority. GREENBERG : Once I got into the Union, I was so ready to work that there was no way that I was going to let the roster system stand in my way. After I did This Girl For Hire , I was hired for a TV movie called The Winter of Our Discontent , which was based on the John Steinbeck novel. It had an excellent cast and an interesting script. I really wanted to do it. Eddie Denault, who was the production executive at Lorimar , told me that the union wanted them to replace me with someone from group one on the roster. (Greenberg was in Group Three). He said that he'd keep me on the job but it was going to cost me money. I had to pay for a stand-by cameraman out of my salary. Then Universal offered me my first studio film. Creator was directed by Ivan Passer and starred Peter O'Toole and Mariel Hemingway. But, I was still in roster group three. The union was trying to replace me with someone higher up on the roster, but I had an ace up my sleeve. I had been working with Conrad W. Hall as my second camera assistant. For this film, I bumped him up to first assistant. On the first day of principal photography his father, Conrad Hall (ASC), came onto the set and said, I'm the stand-by. That was the last time the union tried to get me off a film. The roster system ended soon after that. ICG: You shot a film called Sweet Dreams that got a lot of attention in 1985. GREENBERG: Imagine being called to interview with a director whose films you idolized. That's what happened when I got a call from producer Chuck Mulvehill who told me that he and Karel Reisz (The French Lieutenant's Woman, Isadora, Saturday Night and Sunday Morning) had looked at Creator, which was still being edited, and also at Youngblood . I remember that I was halfway across town doing errands and wearing tattered shorts and a T-shirt when I picked up an answering service message from Chuck Mulvehill, who said that Karel Reisz wanted to meet me. I called him up and I said, I'm not far from where you are, but I'm dressed like a slob. He said, You know, I don't think it matters. Why don't you just come on in? There was an immediate simpatico between Karel and me. We spoke for hours about films we both loved, until finally someone came in and said that Karel was needed in casting. I got up to leave and Karel said, Close the door. I thought he wanted me to close the door behind me. He said, No. Come back in and close the door. He told me that he thought he was going to offer me the job, but asked me not to say anything until the next day. I was speechless. About two hours later I got a phone call from Allen Daviau (ASC) congratulating me the word was on the street before the film was officially offered to me. And that was just the beginning of an extraordinary experience and a very special working relationship with Karel Reisz. Sweet Dreams starred Jessica Lange and Ed Harris. Karel was a consummate film director. He created an atmosphere that drew the best from every member of the cast and crew. Blocking was an organic process. He would watch the actors rehearse from one side of the set while I watched from the other. Then we would switch for the next rehearsal. Sometimes, we'd shoot entire scenes in one take. Other times, it was a montage of images that told the story visually. That film was a great experience. Each day going to work was like going to a master class. It was thrilling to do a film like that at that time in my life. ICG: You did another memorable film in 1988 , The Milagro Beanfield War. GREENBERG : It was a remarkable opportunity for a cinematographer. Robert Redford was in love with the land and culture of Northern New Mexico and he wanted it portrayed as a character in the film. We built our town of Milagro in Truchas with the peaks of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains as our background. The natural light was magnificent but we constantly had to deal with weather changes you get when you are working at 9,000 feet spectacular cloud formations would move in on a moment's notice turning a sunny afternoon dark and foreboding impacting the scene we were shooting. These weather hardships were tough on production but gave us the opportunity to create spectacular photographs. ICG: We wanted to ask about All I Want for Christmas, a 1991 film. GREENBERG : All I Want for Christmas was a classic B Hollywood movie that Brandon Tartikoff put into production when he was at Paramount. It was a Christmas film that was supposed to take place in New York. We shot in the middle of the hottest summer in Los Angeles. It was actually kind of fun in that we really put the power of the studio system to work with respect to creating snow and ice, night and day. We double covered the New York streets on the Paramount lot by rigging both muslin and black duvatine over the tops of the streets. We used the muslin to eliminate the sun during daylight snow scenes (for a cool east coast look) and the duvatine to create night during the day to accommodate the work restriction on the kids in the cast. ICG: Didn't you decide to concentrate on directing and shooting commercials around that point in your career? What was that about? GREENBERG: Lisa and Haskell Wexler (ASC) were partners in a commercial company. Haskell was shooting a spot for Pacific Bell. The creative director got into the car when they were going out to scout locations and he was singing songs from the Sweet Dreams . He said, I'd love to meet the guy who shot that film. Lisa thought it was a put on, but he was serious. We met and about three months later he called to ask whether I'd be interested in directing and shooting a commercial. I directed a Clio award winning series of spots for Pac Bell and then spent several years directing commercials through a company called RiverRun where the other cameraman/director was Jordan Cronenweth (ASC) ICG: What did you learn from that experience? GREENBERG : One of the important things I learned about myself was how much I love shooting movies. Advertising was fun. I liked, no, I loved shooting commercials. They gave me incredible opportunities to experiment with visual styles. ICG: Then, you went back to features. Talk about Free Willy , which you shot in 1993. GREENBERG : Free Willy was not a simple movie. We shot animatronic whales in the Pacific Northwest and in a tank on the backlot at Warner Brothers. And then we shot Keiko, the whale who captured the world's heart, at a theme park in Mexico City. Free Willy was, for me, an early experience in marrying animatronics, plates, and live action with real whales each shot at a different location and all ultimately made to look like an amusement park in Portland where the story took place. ICG: During recent years, you've shot some very meaningful movies for Home Box Office. You won consecutive Emmys and ASC Outstanding Achievement Awards in 1998 and 1999 for Winchell and Introducing Dorothy Dandridge . I'm pretty sure no one else has done that. GREENBERG : Winchell was my first HBO film. It was directed by Paul Mazursky and that was a great experience. I loved working with Paul. We had a great collaboration. We were making a film that spanned several decades from the 20s to the 50s and we used a film we both love Godfather II - for inspiration. With HBO you get great casts, stories and directors, and there's a great spirit on the set. Stanley Tucci played Winchell. I don't think he ever left the set. He was always there and always prepared. Everyone was focused on making the best possible film. I've done three HBO films and my experiences have been the same each time. HBO was extremely supportive. ICG: What was your second HBO film? GREENBERG : Introducing Dorothy Dandridge . It was directed by Martha Coolidge with Halle Berry as Dorothy Dandridge. It was another great experience a completely different visual opportunity from the dark New York look of Winchell . Again it was a period piece, but this time the glitzy Hollywood film scene of the 1950s. Dorothy Dandridge was the first African American woman nominated for Best Actress for Carmen , the musical she starred in for producer/director Otto Preminger. We shot several musical numbers for which I was able to create a more theatrical lighting approach. ICG: After that, you shot Save the Last Dance with Julia Styles and made Chicago at night look great. But we wanted to ask about James Dean . It earned you another Emmy nomination. Can you share some memories? GREENBERG : Mark Rydell directed from an Israel Horowitz screenplay. He found the very talented young actor, James Franco, who gave an extraordinary performance as James Dean. The period was especially dear to Mark because he grew up in the Actor's Studio at the same time James Dean studied there. This was the third time I photographed a film set in the 50s. It was important to me to achieve a look for the film that was authentic to Mark's memories of the time from the New York jazz and theater scene to the Hollywood studio scene. ICG: Iron Jawed Angels was your third HBO movie. Like all of the HBO films you worked on, it attracted a terrific cast and talented director, Katja Von Garnier. GREENBERG : It was a great cast including Hilary Swank, Anjelica Huston, Frances O'Connor, and Julia Ormond. I'd seen Katja's film, Bandits , and I was intrigued by its style and by her use of music and editorial techniques to enhance the storytelling. ICG: In an ICG magazine article you discuss why it was important to shoot this film at a historically authentic location in Virginia. GREENBERG : Location is an extremely important element in any film Northern New Mexico truly was a character in Milagro . In the same way it was important to the Suffragist story to set it in its historical context Washington D.C. from 1912 to 1920. Richmond, Virginia's government buildings and even some of the streets remain the same as they looked early in the 20 th Century. (We digitally removed anything out of period and added elements like the Capitol Building in the background of a parade scene.) ICG: Did you oversee the look of the film through postproduction? GREENBERG : Fortunately, I was invited to give creative input at every stage of the visual effects process. HBO finishes on film like a feature. These prints are used for premiere screenings. The version that's broadcast on HBO is made from the interpositive film print. ICG: HBO has used digital intermediate technology to finish four or five recent films, yet you chose not to use the digital intermediate. Can you explain why? GREENBERG : Nothing in my discussions with the director suggested a need for an overall digital intermediate process. We created the look of the film through production design and lighting. Then, we went to EFILM and took advantage of the digital intermediate technology for the credit sequence, a montage where we wanted a more desaturated look, and all of the scenes where we had CGI elements and rig removal. The results were great. ICG: Do you think the digital intermediate process is the way of the future, and if so, what are the ramifications for cinematographers? GREENBERG : For the cinematographer the digital intermediate is a very exciting technological development. It offers an astonishing amount of flexibility to manipulate the image. It's allowed for the creation of seamless effects in films like Lord of the Rings. I know that many cinematographers have concerns about retaining creative control of the look during this process. How do you keep someone in the post process from changing the images you created? That's a legitimate question, but I suspect that, at least for now, it will be resolved on an individual basis. I've always been invited into the postproduction process and I don't expect that to change. ICG: There is a notion out there that with digital postproduction technology you can forget about artful lighting when you shoot because you can fix anything later. That's certainly what Robert Rodriguez seems to be saying about not letting lighting get in the way of the actors while he's shooting, because he can fix it later. GREENBERG : Cinematography is not about the equipment or doing away with the machine sometimes it requires a lot of equipment to create the atmosphere required to visually tell a story and sometimes none at all. ICG: Do actors and actresses respond to light? Does it affect their performances? GREENBERG : They do respond to light and it does affect their performances. If I'm successful in creating an atmosphere of light setting the story in a visual context it helps them access their character. ICG: Can you cite and example from your experience? GREENBERG : I did a film with Donald Sutherland some years ago. It was a TV movie called The Winter of Our Discontent . I remember being in awe of Donald's ability to bring the totality of his experiences to the set. I lit a scene where there was light coming through a window in the background. He clearly understood why that light was there and he made the best use of it to accentuate his performance and the drama of the moment. I think that that's true with all good actors. They understand when they're being cared for in lighting. They appreciate the effort and understand the aesthetic values. ICG: There is an interesting connection between actors and cinematographers. GREENBERG : I have to confess that I fall in love with the actresses on every film. I don't know how I could photograph their faces as lovingly without some emotional connection to them. I think there is a special affinity between actors and cinematographers. ICG: I remember Sally Field saying that about Bill Fraker (ASC) when he received the ASC Lifetime Achievement Award. She said she surreptitiously watched his face to see what he thought after each shot. On the same topic, but a slightly different vane, there is an ad running in some trade magazines paid for by the Screen Actors Guild. It says actors love digital because you can work with smaller crews that are less obtrusive which gives them more freedom to be creative. Does that surprise you? GREENBERG : The actors I know want to work with good material, and they want the support it takes for them to execute their performances. I've never heard an actor say that they found the camera or crew obtrusive. I'd guess that whoever wrote that ad didn't consult with SAG members to find out they feel. ICG: Do you think Iron Jawed Angels and other movies play a broader role in our society than being purely entertainment? GREENBERG : Films do play a broader role in society. There's a lot of historical and political information in Iron Jawed Angels. I give an extraordinary amount of the credit for that to the director, Katja Von Garnier. Every serious artist I know has concerns about style winning out over content. In this particular film, I believe that style enhanced the content. As a result, I think she made a film that successfully expresses what it was like for women who fought for the right to vote. She made great use of contemporary music and contemporary filmmaking techniques to help tell that story. ICG: Do you think the role of the cinematographer is going to change as time goes on? Is technology going to change that role? GREENBERG : I don't think so. The equipment we use might change, but the artistry needed to tell a visual story will remain the same. ICG: If you were talking to a classroom of cinematography students, what advice would you give? How should they prepare for their futures? GREENBERG : I think they need to do the same things that we all did. If they are interested in becoming cinematographers, they should be looking at a lot of films and studying still photography. Get your hands dirty. Learn about exposure, developing and printing chemical images. It's about using photography as a way of learning how to express your soul and translating that to film. And, on the practical side, take any opportunity to work on a film set that you can get. ICG: What films should they look at, besides all of yours? GREENBERG: Many cinematographers have inspired and informed me. Conrad Hall was a major influence during the early 1970s when I was just beginning to define myself as a cinematographer; both with his films and the things he said during interviews. As Conrad got older he never stopped growing. He never shot two films in the same way. He was as passionate on the day he died as he was on the day he began shooting. His incredible courage touched my soul. Gordon Willis (ASC) was another major influence. I studied his work on Godfather II frame by frame. Freddie Young (BSC), Billy Bitzer (ASC), Haskell Wexler (ASC), Peter Bijou and Chris Menges (BSC) are all great visual storytellers. ICG: I suspect it must be incredibly difficult for cinematographers to always be working on the edge, trying to do things that haven't been done before. GREENBERG : The challenge is not about working on the edge it's about making the right photographic choice for each film. ICG: Does it ever bother you that the public and most critics have no idea what you guys do? They think you point the camera and shoot beautiful pictures. GREENBERG : That's not true of all critics. Some appreciate the visuals more than others. The public, the audience, is just supposed to have a great movie experience. When they do, it's very gratifying. ICG: Knowing what you know today, if you were magically 20 years old again, and were starting your career all over again, what would you do differently, if anything? GREENBERG : I don't think I would do anything differently, creatively. Somebody once said to me that all the career mistakes they had made involved diplomacy or a lack of... I believe that's true and had I realized it early on I might have handled a few meetings a bit differently. ICG: This is my Death of A Salesman question where Willy Loman asks his uncle for the secret of success? What do you say when young filmmakers ask that question? GREENBERG: To me, the single most important secret for success is that you have to want to do this work more than you want to breathe. As silly as that sounds, it was true when I started and it's true today. When you consider the huge numbers of people who are interested in becoming filmmakers, the odds against you succeeding in this business are considerable. You have to really want it and you have to remain committed to it. It takes a long time. I started in 1969 doing whatever film work was available. I spent 14 years barely making a living, and not working on the kinds of films I dreamed of shooting, until I got into the union. You've got to want to be a cinematographer pretty badly to do that. ICG: If you could wave a magic wand and get to make a film with a director or actor from the past and do a picture with them, who would it be? GREENBERG : I guess I would pick Francois Truffaut. I would have loved to work with him. If I had to pick one film to shoot, it would be Jules and Jim . I fell in love with filmmaking after I saw that film, or maybe The Wild Child . And, who wouldn't want to photograph Lawrence of Arabia ?
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