Transcript of Live Chat with
Fred Koenekamp, ASC
Oct. 23, 2004
Moderator ( Oct 23, 2004 2:37:57 PM)
Live from the SMPTE Conference in Pasadena, we’re chatting with Fred Koenekamp, ASC. Students and filmmakers from around the country have joined us here on site and online. A very special welcome to Laszlo Kovacs who will be participating in the panel that follows this chat. We’ll take our first question.
Gino ( Oct 23, 2004 2:48:23 PM)
I loved The Man From U.N.C.L.E. Can you tell us was that all shot on stages, or did you go to locations? I am asking that question, because every one of those episodes seemed to be set in different places.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:49:45 PM)
Back then, the old MGM studios had three main lots, not just one like now. They were called the back lots number 1, 2 and 3. It was unbelievable what they had on those lots. They had a New York street, they had a swimming pool, a French street and that was on lot 1.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:50:17 PM)
On lot 3, they had a railroad station, they had a lake, a steamboat and almost a forest out there. It's amazing because I have been asked this exact question before. Did you go on location? We never went beyond lot 2 and 3. We just took advantage of what we had there. It was amazing because people thought that we actually went out to different locations. Now it isn't possible because it is all being torn down for houses.
bonz malone ( Oct 23, 2004 2:50:52 PM)
You spoke about doing underwater camera crew work on some of the Esther Williams films. Can you remember the names of any of those films? And, I have a follow-up question. What was it like shooting underwater in those days? How did you handle underwater lighting with slow films and lenses?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:51:36 PM)
I only did one Esther Williams movie out there, but I'll be darned if I could remember the name of it. That was a big break for me because I had just done my first movie as an assistant cameraman for RKO.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:53:07 PM)
When we finished shooting underwater, I had learned how to work with cameras underwater and how they lit them. It was interesting to put lights underwater that would not fry somebody. They took 10K's - which at that time was the largest incandescent. We took the lens out and put the open bulb into the water and wrapped all the cables leading out of the water. They couldn't be lit outside the water and the coolness of the water kept the bulb from blowing up.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:53:48 PM)
At the end of the picture, RKO got a call from MGM saying they needed an underwater assistant cameraman. I got that job and I stayed there for 14 years.
Op_Ed ( Oct 23, 2004 2:55:05 PM)
How does a person know if they’re meant to be a DP or if they’re just meant to be a career operator?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:55:42 PM)
That's an interesting question. I wasn't even sure when I worked in the loading room. In those days, that's where you started out. One of the things I was able to do as a loader… we'd come to work in the afternoon and I'd go to the sets and pick up exposed film and bring it back to the department and load it.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:56:43 PM)
This was my first chance on a set and, of course, I knew a lot of the assistant cameramen. I would talk to the guys and ask what they were doing. The more I got on the set, the more I knew I wanted to do it. It was fascinating to see all these jobs: the lighting, the grip work, etc. It took about five years for that to happen out of the loading room, and after that they made me a camera assistant.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:57:28 PM)
A camera operator is probably the most fun job on a set. It's fascinating because it's fun to do. It’s fun to sit behind the camera and compose shots. In the mean time, you are learning constantly from the camera man you are working with. Over the years, you learn a lot from other cameramen because you are very close to them. But as a camera operator, you learn a lot from the first cameraman because he relies on you quite a bit.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:58:26 PM)
When you become an operator, sometimes you are so happy you don't want to become a cameraman. But, I knew that I wanted to go on and see how far I could go with this. It was beyond a thrill to be offered a job at MGM.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 2:58:57 PM)
What does the cinematographer do that is different from what an operator does?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:59:18 PM)
There is a difference. Most first cameramen can still operate a camera. But, if you're working on a set under union rules, the first cameraman is not supposed to operate a camera.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 2:59:33 PM)
As the first cameraman, the first thing you want to do is get with the director who will lay out a shot for you that is going to be done that day. As a first cameraman you start visualizing where you will lay it out, let's say a master shot with all the actors. After you've talked to the director to get an idea what's in his mind – because you are representing what the director wants to do – you go ahead and lay out a shot. Basically, work with the grip, dolly and boom. In the mean time, the camera operator is in your right hand pocket. He is watching everything you're doing and learning what that master shot is. By that point you've got the moves worked out and what you are going to do. By that time the cameraman is sitting in a chair watching everything that is going on.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:01:44 PM)
I was very lucky because I had terrific operators. I really relied on a good operator. It was wonderful to be able to sit back and relax and know that he was going to put on the screen the composition that you wanted and that the director wanted.
SMPTE Audience (Oct 23, 2004 3:01:48 PM)
When you shot Patton, how many takes were involved in the opening shot of George C. Scott in front of the flag?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:02:21 PM)
Ha Ha. That was probably one of the most interesting days on Patton.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:02:34 PM)
We had only scheduled one day. You'd almost have to know George C. Scott and be around him. The man is phenomenal. He is so professional no matter what role he is doing. He is probably the most talented actor I worked with. We did the master shot which is 11 pages. That's like a day in TV. On a feature film you usually do 3-4 pages. George Scott got onto the set, the stage, and he didn't rehearse. Franklin Schaffner, the director, said you're ready to go. George did it in one take for the master shot. In all the shows I did with him I never saw him flub a shot.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:04:18 PM)
Afterwards we did a number of coverage shots. Close shots, etc. We finished that day at three in the afternoon. There were a number of things like that with George Scott where he was so good you could go right through scenes.
Laszlo Kovacs ( Oct 23, 2004 3:04:49 PM)
How large was the flag?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:05:09 PM)
I can't tell the actual footage but it was the whole end of a stage. They built a platform and he walked out of the background in front of this flag.
Laszlo Kovacs ( Oct 23, 2004 3:05:25 PM)
To light it evenly must have been a great challenge.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:05:55 PM)
Fortunately there were no big shadows going about it. We hung back with 10K's and put silks on them to soften the harsh light. They were far enough back and high enough for the master shot that they didn't cause big shadow problems.
Roger ( Oct 23, 2004 3:06:28 PM)
I have another Patton question. You said that as the picture went on, George Scott became Patton. Was that a rare occurrence, when an actor got that deep into a part?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:07:13 PM)
It's not rare because a lot of good actors get into their parts, very much so, but the first day…I remember it distinctly. Let me tell a story.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:08:16 PM)
We went to one of the castles in Segovia, Spain. The director gave me the shot and we lined it up. Patton was having his portrait done on the set and we are looking down a long corridor in this castle – which took a while to get lit. Around ten o’clock, no George Scott. Noon, no Scott. We went to lunch and were told George is here now. This is the very first day on the set. We all felt that George got so involved in his part and his picture. He may have had too much to drink that night, we don't know, but we started shooting right after lunch. He was the most professional guy. We got in there, did the day's work and finished around five o'clock. He certainly was very much an actor who got into his part.
Eff-stop ( Oct 23, 2004 3:09:04 PM)
You said Patton was your all time favorite movie. Was it your work on the film that made it your favorite... or the story?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:09:28 PM)
It was a combination.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:10:08 PM)
I didn't realize when we started that it would be such a phenomenal picture. I had worked in Spain for a month with the director. Of course, being a WWII veteran I knew all about Patton from the radio and newspaper because I was in the Pacific and he was in Europe. It is my favorite picture, I'll be honest. I have four pictures that really stand out for me. Partly because I got on the ball and did a good job, because they had great directors, casts, stories. Everyone and everything was focused on making a great picture. Even though I didn't win the award for Patton, I'll always remember it.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:11:49 PM)
People still talk about it, people still see it. I have seen the 70 mm print and if you get a chance to see it I urge you to go because it is beautiful. For instance, my wife and I were sitting at a screening and on came the flag shot. I thought I was on a stage and he would walk up and shake my hand. It was alive. The whole picture looked like that.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:12:50 PM)
You made that movie with no taps - no director on a monitor. What's that like today?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:13:15 PM)
That's a touchy subject. Sometimes it's very good. No, we didn't have it then or for quite a while. When it first came in, it was a pain in the neck because it was a toy with too many people looking at it and too many opinions. I had the idea that the director was the one you listened to and you didn't need to hear other people's dialogue. Then it settled down.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:14:06 PM)
On Flight of the Intruder, a picture with a lot of action, I liked it. The way it worked was I would sit on a boom with a screen and he would sit on the floor watch it on a monitor. You can't judge photography but he could tell what the actors were doing and what the composition was. It's really not fair to the cameraman because you can't tell what it will turn out like. But on that picture it worked out well. He and I had a rapport. I was up in the boom and he was down on the ground...it can work, yes.
SBDP ( Oct 23, 2004 3:14:29 PM)
Do you ever catch any of your older films on cable? Do they look like they're supposed to look?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:15:38 PM)
Yes, they're on almost every week. In many cases they look pretty good and have gotten better over the years. Just a week ago I saw The First Monday in October and I knew that Paramount had just made a good print of it and the TV station had gotten a hold of it.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:15:57 PM)
TV has come a long way since I started working on it. Some of the TV series out there, I take my hat off to those guys. They really look great.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:16:19 PM)
You said Patton was one of your four favorite. What were the others?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:16:12 PM)
Islands in the Stream, Papillon, The Towering Inferno.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:17:50 PM)
Kokak has come up with some interesting films in the last year. The new films are 500 speed. What do you think about them?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:18:07 PM)
I've been retired for 12 years, most of this happened since then. Even in my time as a cameraman Kodak did a fantastic job of constantly bringing out better films with speed, better definition and digging into the blacks better.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:18:44 PM)
These days cameramen read their meters, which are very accurate. I worked in foot candles. I worked on a picture with Bob Surtees. It was in Technicolor. He had 1000 foot candles on set, it was so hot in there you couldn't stand it.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:19:00 PM)
When I started on TV I was using 200 foot candles at a 3.5 stop on the camera. As Kodak came out with better films every year, we came down in foot candles. On my last film I was down to 20 foot candles and I still had a 3.5 f stop. You can imagine how that helped We had all those lights to get there and we were down to just juniors and babies. It helped with electric bills and the crew. I take my hat off to Kodak.
Op_Ed ( Oct 23, 2004 3:20:28 PM)
I’m curious about how the Guild’s pension plan has benefited you. You retired before the merger, right? Have retirees been better off for having the national local to negotiate its benefits?
Fred Koenekamp (Oct 23, 2004 3:21:35 PM)
I don't know if that affected me except that when I retired we were still the local out here in Hollywood and we did get our pension. The greatest thing about our business is the Motion Picture Health and Welfare plan. They take care of us. I have a feeling that I'm very happy that they merged.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:22:09 PM)
I remember going back to New York or Chicago and we weren't merged then and there was always the feeling of, ‘Why are you guys here?’ But I will say that there were good guys there and it was a pleasure to work with them. I'm glad we merged.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:22:35 PM)
Papillon was shot in 35. Can you talk about the size of the equipment you used?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:22:59 PM)
That was shot by Franklin Shaffner. We went to Spain for the opening sequence where they're marching through town to the boat. What we had in those days was Panavision's first reflex camera, the PSR, but it wasn't any smaller than previous cameras. Fortunately, because I had worked on the very first Panavision camera as an assistant and stayed all those years, Bob Gottshak and I became very good friends. Bob told me they were working on a new camera called Panaflex and I wanted it because it was half the size of the PSR, It was lightweight, it had magazines for reload and it was a reflex camera.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:24:59 PM)
Obviously, we were shooting with two or three cameras. On an outdoor movie I like more cameras because you pick up more shots and it gives the director more to work with and improves continuity. We went to Jamaica to finish the picture and we were working in a bamboo forest.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:25:54 PM)
My assistant comes and says, “Guess what? We got the first Panaflex camera.” They set the camera up and we went to shoot with it but it wouldn't run. It turns out that the magazine had the driving motor inside it. There were two electrical hookups on the base and they somehow shorted out. Of course, they easily fixed it but I was so disappointed. I always carried an Aeroflex as a hand camera because it's easy to use and lightweight. For sound we had the bigger cameras.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:26:47 PM)
Lighting-wise, Papillon was before HMI lighting – which became the newer type because it was lightweight. Of course, we were still using Arcs and nine lights. We had incandescent lights for night work and those kind of things.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:27:47 PM)
The picture went great and I feel good about it. When you're worked as a cameraman with Frank, there were never any surprises. He was a quiet spoken man and came out totally prepared every day. He got up at five am and made a shot list and used it only for his own reference. He and I were very close and by the time we did Papillon it was wonderful. From the standpoint of logistics it was tough because we moved around a lot, but it all gelled. You knew what the day's work was.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:29:07 PM)
I am often asked by young people, “What would you tell a new cameraman is the most important thing about filmmaking?” I say preparation. Seeing the director's other movies, making notes, thinking of what the director has on his mind. It is so much better to know what you are going to do that day and that makes you feel better.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:29:57 PM)
At the end of the picture they wanted background shots of the real Devil's Island and the prison on shore. We went down to French Guyana and we stayed in a little hotel that looked right out on Devil's Island. At this time, the cells and buildings were falling to pieces but it was really something to see them. All those beginning shots, those are the real Devil's Island and prison on shore. It must have been a spooky place.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:31:11 PM)
How did you educate yourself on all the new products coming out?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:31:18 PM)
Good question. I was one of those guys who could hardly wait to get anything new. I wanted it and wanted to see what it could do. The studio wanted me to light a set with all quartz lights because it was cheaper. Well, you could do it but they couldn't be controlled because they are hotter than a pistol.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:32:19 PM)
When the HMI's came out, the first thing was a 6K and by the time I was getting ready to retire, they were up to 12. It puts out a lot of light that is smooth and nice. They are exterior, and for interior shots you had to compensate interior because it was a blue light.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:32:38 PM)
In my last few years of working I never carried an Arc because we didn't need them anymore. Grip equipment also changed a lot during my period of working. I was working at RKO studios when their people built the first crab dolly on the lot. I remember watching them and instead of tracking they could go any direction and do anything they wanted with it. Between lighting, new film types and grip equipment things just got better and better.
Gino ( Oct 23, 2004 3:33:26 PM)
Can you talk about that last shot in Papillon when Steve McQueen is on the raft in the ocean escaping the island. How far offshore was he? How did you get that shot?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:34:02 PM)
After we got him out on a boat and raft it was only a half mile off shore. It was a helicopter shot over the water.
Cyd ( Oct 23, 2004 3:34:12 PM)
In Billy Jack, Tom Laughton, the director also played a starring role. How you handle that situation? How did you take some of the burden off him?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:34:34 PM)
Ha Ha. That's a good one. I had two movies where the director was also the actor. The other was with George Scott called Rage.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:35:15 PM)
With Tom, he was a tough man to get to know closely. He has very definite ideas and knew exactly what he wanted and where he was going. I got to a point where we could talk about things. He would ask how did that work and I could answer him. By the time we finished Billy Jack, it was okay.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:36:50 PM)
I think it's a little tougher on the cameraman. For example, let's say you do a small master shot and you cover the master shot and do some close ups. With George, he would say, "Everybody knows who I am, they don't need a closeup". George was so good you couldn't argue because what he did was right. But, if I had my way what I would do is have him behind the camera with me.
Focal Guy ( Oct 23, 2004 3:36:54 PM)
I was impressed with your comments about your relationship with Frank Shaffner. Do you have any hints for young cinematographers about how to form good working relationships with directors, or is it different everytime? What if you think your ideas could help a film, but the director isn’t interested in hearing them? Did you ever have that happen to you, and if so, how did you handle it?
Fred Koenekamp (Oct 23, 2004 3:38:02 PM)
I had a set way in my mind how I wanted to work with a director, and I felt that the closer I got, the more comfortable and better job I could do. However, there are cases where that doesn't work.
Fred Koenekamp (Oct 23, 2004 3:38:46 PM)
I don't want to put down anyone but the reason I like Frank so well is because he gave me every opportunity to talk to him, to go over the day's work, to go over the week's work. He made my job as easy as a director could, and it was a friendship. I think that's important.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:39:14 PM)
I tried to do that with every director but some didn't really want to do that. I mean, to go over the script with you. I like to go over page by page and talk about it, including the assistant director.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:39:49 PM)
If you're a young DP and you get your first break, let me say that preparation is the most important thing you can do. It's knowing the director, the script and the equipment. As a cameraman you have to go to your grip, gaffer and order your equipment. It's easy to order too much.
Moderator ( Oct 23, 2004 3:40:18 PM)
We only have time for two more questions.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:42:02 PM)
I am more of a black and white person. Will there come a turnaround in the film industry in black and white film? What's your opinion as a DP? Is it going to come back?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:41:58 PM)
I enjoyed black and white and did shoot it before color.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:42:53 PM)
A lot of your great classics were in the black and white days. I think people refer to them as black and white because that's all they had back then. I'm not sure that I'd want to start shooting them again. It's actually tougher to shoot black and white than color. You have to make what you see on the screen as a cameraman. We used to carry boxes of different fillers to give you contrast.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:43:32 PM)
Color gives you contrast automatically, but black and white can wash out so easily on you. You have to pull your actors' faces away from walls. By using fillers you can put contrast back into the set. Also, lighting it is a little trickier.
SMPTE Audience ( Oct 23, 2004 3:44:44 PM)
I'm a film student at NYU. Students feel there's a new wave coming. As a DP, do you think technology has enhanced film or will it take over film?
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:44:54 PM)
Interesting question because we heard this for many years when tape came in. We got scared, but that passed and went on. Now we have digital, it's great for some things. I'm not sure you'd want to make a whole movie on it yet, but I think it's coming.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:45:29 PM)
I think it's interesting because I have a son-in-law who works for Kodak on their digital cameras, but it's mostly still cameras. I don't think it will replace film but will enhance it like they've done in so many movies.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:46:43 PM)
Technically speaking it's digital photography which is so big right now. Even on my last movie where we had a lot of blue screen and miniatures I was surprised at how much it changed. All the sudden, you can move the camera because before it had to be tied down. That opened up a lot. I think it will all work out hand in hand, not one or the other.
Bob Fisher ( Oct 23, 2004 3:47:59 PM)
Not long ago, Bill Bennett was asked what made him decide to become a cinematographer. He said "I decided I wanted to become a cinematographer when I saw a 70mm print of Patton and every time someone asks me about digital, I say, ‘Come back to me when someone makes a digital film like that, a movie like Patton that can touch someone so deeply.’"
Fred Koenekamp (Oct 23, 2004 3:48:06 PM)
There's something very exciting, whether it's on TV or a big screen, when you see a good print and you know that people worked their tails off to put it there, you can't beat it. Hopefully there's a good story out there to put it with.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:48:43 PM)
Even the picture Papillon was a phenomenal looking picture. It wasn't 70mm but it was cinemascope and looks great. I wish I could start another like that tomorrow.
Fred Koenekamp ( Oct 23, 2004 3:48:46 PM)
Thank you all very much for your questions.
