Transcript
of Live Chat with
Dante
Spinotti, ASC, AIC
October
18, 2003
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 12:59:00 PM)
Hi! I'm here in the Bahamas shooting After the Sunset, and the director
is Brett Ratner, a young director, with whom I shot two other films. This movie
is something that can be referred to Hitchcock's To Catch A Thief.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 12:59:22 PM)
The thief is retired but longing to get into another scheme. With a big twist
at the end, and placed against the Bahamian background. Trying to make the
most of the beauty of the island.
George Spiro Dibie (Oct 18, 2003 12:59:33 PM)
Hello Dante. I just wanted to say hello and thank you for taking time away
from your very busy schedule to conduct this Internet chat with our members
and friends. You are a great artist, and a source of inspiration to young
filmmakers in every part of the world. I want to make certain that you know
we admire you for both your talent and for your generosity in sharing your
insights into our art form. I know you will shoot a wonderful picture in
the Bahamas, but we all look forward to seeing you when you are back home
in Los Angeles.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:01:50 PM)
Thanks, George! You're always so kind. I thank you for what you do for this
organization. I'm very proud to be a part of the Guild. Back in my Italian
days I was always connected to the unions. The unions over there have a different
kind of history, but the final point is to be a congregation of people who
do similar work and have a similar kind of life – social and life issues
in front of them. So it's good to talk together, knowing that so much is
to be done to keep our work places in such a way that we love to be there.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:02:19 PM)
The history of the unions is such a big part of the modern history of mankind.
God bless humanity for putting together some unions. We need protection from
the financial powers.
Lenser (Oct 18, 2003 1:02:27 PM)
You said you worked on documentaries at the beginning of your career. Do you
think that is useful experience for a young cinematographer today, or would
I be better off trying to work on a camera crew as an assistant or operator?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:03:39 PM)
I think you need both experiences. You need to be in a camera crew because
if your idea of a career is to go into storytelling, you need to be on a
film crew.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:03:56 PM)
But on the other hand, the experience in documentaries gives you a free eye,
you learn to find solutions on your own. So you learn to simplify your approach.
And you learn many issues that you would not learn on a feature film movie
crew. So I think you do need both experiences.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:04:37 PM)
Somebody might decide to be on the documentary side, to express himself shooting
documentaries. I'm very fond of them, and to me shooting documentaries is
very exciting. I would like to be a director of documentaries too. It gives
you a lot of freedom. It lets you transfer emotions directly to your audience
without a story.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:05:48 PM)
A French documentary maker, Frederic Rossif, said that making a documentary
is about communicating desires, creating desires. It's not about explaining
things. And so documentary is a fine thing because this is what you do, you
collect images, you look at things. You see the emotions and try to tell
these emotions to other people. This will give you freedom of eye. It will
give you the necessity of simplifying things, of getting to the core of the
matter. You usually do documentaries without big equipment, barely any light
most times. So you also learn how to simplify the way you do things.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:06:58 PM)
On the other hand, the exteriors on a movie set are very important because
you learn the profession, and after some learning at school it's probably
the best way to get on. It's probably the most difficult thing to find someone
who can help you get on. Sometimes it does not depend on the intensity of
your application to your work. But the on-site experience has no match.
frederic (Oct 18, 2003 1:07:36 PM)
Dante, this is a wonderful way to converse with you. I have always been intrigued
by your references to the 'visual language of a film'. Could you discuss
the visual language you employed in some sequences in that marvelous L.A.
Confidential?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:09:09 PM)
Yes, I probably know you, Frederic. L.A. Confidential was a period piece
and I felt it should have a visual reference to still photography. There was
some amazing work by Robert Frank, a Swiss photographer in the '50s. So I suggested
to the director that after we rehearsed a scene we should have a Leica in our
hands and so we take a shot here, a portrait here, then wide.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:09:27 PM)
We were setting up the language of the film much as if a still photographer
would have been around, shooting what was in front of him. Because of that,
the lighting style of course was – it was fascinating of course, but it was
dictated by whatever we were organizing around the scene – practicals and
existing light. No doubt a realistic approach.
Pops (Oct 18, 2003 1:10:07 PM)
I adored Wonder Boys. It really made use of the city of Pittsburgh (my
hometown) as a key character. One question: how come you didn’t use the ingoing
Fort Pitt tunnel as a way to introduce the city to viewers?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:12:02 PM)
Well, it's a good question. I felt - and actually – first of all, the story
by Michael Chabon, in some ways referred to Dante's Divine Comedy,
who first wrote a poem about a trip through hell, purgatory and paradise,
encountering many characters on the way. So the reference to Wonder Boys is
very similar. I also happened to tell the director that it seemed to me that
Pittsburgh was a wonder city because it was very successful in the steel
era, and then after that went away the city lost its core and had to reinvent
itself.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:12:48 PM)
So, Pittsburgh became a character in the story – a fundamental part of the
story. Like the characters in our story. Our writer who writes a very successful
book when he's young, and then after that had to reinvent himself and go
through a sort of catharsis in his life.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:13:33 PM)
So, because of that I felt the presence of the city in the story was important.
That was one of the reasons why in the 5 or 6 big dialogues we had in car
sequences I proposed to shoot those on stage using green screens and add
in the big factories along the river, twilight, huge metal factories, with
the fires reflecting in the river's water.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:15:05 PM)
One of the big streets in Pittsburgh had a number of bright stores where we
used to take the transvestite character. And then the scene ends up in a
darker Polish part of the city where his father waits for him. So we can
really describe the transition of the character by having those backgrounds
behind him. So we shot some plates at six frames per second so everything
could be really bright and vivid. And then you matched the lights on the
actors on stage in the cars to replicate what was outside the window.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:16:28 PM)
At some point in the movie – at the beginning – we did a tunnel scene with
Michael Douglas, Robert Downey, Jr. and the transvestite. At the end of the
scene we shot a POV of the city from the airport. I think the shot is in
the movie.
SBDP (Oct 18, 2003 1:16:32 PM)
You have worked with many beautiful actresses. Do you have any hints for lighting
beautiful actress? How do you shoot tests and what do you look for?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:17:14 PM)
When I shoot tests, I basically look for problems. I look for maybe things
to avoid, not to distract the audience from the beauty and the fascination
of the face of the character I will have in the movie. I try to find out
what I can not do.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:17:42 PM)
On a movie I did with Sharon Stone, there was nothing I could not do. She was
so good, no matter which the angle, always so beautiful. So that's what I
look for on the tests.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:18:26 PM)
In terms of lighting, I try to accompany what the character is and which is
the way to enhance their beauty. I once had to refer to a small book, How
to Light Beautiful Women, from black and white portrait photography.
It taught me some tricks.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:18:59 PM)
When Kim Basinger came on L.A. Confidential, we didn't have any time
to do any tests. She became a very important actress for Curtis Hanson, but
back in the day it took a long time for Curtis to choose his actress. So Kim
came in the movie and we just started shooting. And one of the early scenes
is when she appears for the first time in the movie. It was such a good shot,
it became the poster for the picture.
Brooksie (Oct 18, 2003 1:19:26 PM)
You mentioned that 8½ and other Gianni DiVenanzo films influenced you.
What is it about those films that is so special, and can you suggest some of
his other films that I should try to look at on DVD if they are available?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:20:30 PM)
Well Gianni DiVenanzo was probably the first cinematographer – he died young,
probably 40 or 45, from an upper viral infection – but he was one of the
first cinematographers who started shooting movies in a very realistic way
but at the same time using the whole range of the tonality of black and white
film.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:21:04 PM)
It's as if you transferred Ansel Adams into shooting a movie – with his huge
ability to control the infinite mid tones, the grays and the blacks. All
this occurred in very real settings. There was no sense of having traditional
movie lights in his picture. No spotlights going into something else. Recreating
very strong atmospheres and using this beautiful black and white range of
grays. On top of having a really great cinematographer, you have a director
like Fellini and now you get the perfect opus.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:22:35 PM)
So he started doing some color films, but I think he major work was in B&W.
He did The Bandit Juliano by Rosi. And it was really the first time
– I mean, Gianni was lighting streets with just enhancing the street lights.
Nobody had done that before him.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:22:54 PM)
Another great movie by a director called Loy was The 4 Days in Naples.
Bobf (Oct 18, 2003 1:23:03 PM)
I understand you are shooting a film now in the Bahamas. Are you taking any
special precautions about films flying in and out of the country, going through
x-ray machines at airports etc? How do you handle that?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:23:53 PM)
I have to thank Bob Fisher who wrote this question for warning me on an issue
I had not tackled yet. I have not yet gone into that yet. But no doubt on
Monday I will get into it. All I can say is I carry my steel film in a lead
bag, and so far I put the lead bag in one of my carry-on cases and nobody
has had anything to say about it.
Lefty (Oct 18, 2003 1:24:23 PM)
This is the 75th anniversary of the Camera Guild. We have obviously made a
lot of progress. Are you optimistic about the future of cinematography, or
do you think Robert Rodriguez is right, and in the future digital cameras
will make it so simple that directors won't need cinematographers?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:27:55 PM)
Well, I think there's a lot of philosophizing on this issue of new technology
regarding professions. And I think most of it is just to deliver shocking
news around. If you look back, you see editors that have timed movies because
of disagreements between DPs and directors. Movies that have gone on maybe
to get an Academy Award for Best Cinematography.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:28:57 PM)
There is always going to be someone who has to take care of the complex issue
of shooting a movie with a camera. Stanley Kubrick, Peter Hyams, some directors
will be technical and shoot movies. Ridley Scott. You can definitely see
that although he knows what lighting and images he wants – because movie
after movie has that particular approach – he needs a cinematographer to
help him out on the operation.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:29:14 PM)
Even space lighting. You don't have film and electronics. Images that are changing.
In commercials, some directors shoot and some do not.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:30:07 PM)
Nothing is basically changing. Directors are in two categories. Some are technical,
a very small number. The remainder need the help of a cinematographer in
the operation of the camera, the language of light. Someone will have to
do lighting, no matter what. And someone has to operate the camera no matter
what.
Zayden (Oct 18, 2003 1:30:34 PM)
I’ve heard lots of speculation about the set of Heat and whether or
not Pacino and De Niro actually shared a stage. Tell us the truth about that
famous scene in the restaurant: were they really sitting across from each other
or did you shoot them separately?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:31:58 PM)
Well, they were definitely together in a couple scenes. One is the scene on
the freeway where it's first from a helicopter and then a car as he lands.
And then the very simple setting in Los Angeles: the diner where they meet
and have a wonderful dialogue. We shot them together. We used two cameras
on both actors working at the same time. We had both actors lit so we could
have a camera on each.
Rosamunde (Oct 18, 2003 1:32:11 PM)
I loved Last of the Mohicans. In the interview on the website, you described
a little bit about how you lit the shot in the cave at night. Can you describe
how you lit that shot in more detail, including whether it a set on a stage
or a real cave?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:33:14 PM)
It was actually both, because the opening as they enter the cave was shot in
a real waterfall in the Dupont Estate in North Carolina. Our heroes start
walking under this powerful waterfall, and then they enter a cave and that
was a stage situation.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:33:39 PM)
The whole movie was about the power of nature versus the tiny human activity
and human struggle and conflicts within this big natural environment. So
I had to reproduce that even inside the cage.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:34:16 PM)
And I had to render the power of this huge amount of water crossing in front
of this cage. And the way I learned how to do it was that I thought that
if I had some strongly pulsating light – it happened to be at night, so it
was sort of an idea of moonlight, but it was very pulsating because it was
coming through this huge waterfall.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:35:03 PM)
And if this light was pulsating on the actors' faces, then it would have the
effect of reproducing the power. And also we needed to shoot the water, so
FX was delivering the waterfall on stage with huge pumps. When we were shooting
toward the water there was not enough water, so we had to have water in the
atmosphere and some smoke. Shooting the actors had to replicate the light
effect, actually created by two 4x4 mylar reflective shiny plastic that was
shaken by a couple of grips who were doing their job very accurately, and
on which I was pointing a couple of 4K xenons.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:36:18 PM)
Also, when we were shooting the actors, we were cutting down the waterfall
with a towel for just the sound, and we had the light going through an additional
sheet of clear plastic on which I had some water lighting so I could break
it up as much as I could. It was about reproducing the force of nature in
this very dramatic moment happening at that point in the story.
frederic (Oct 18, 2003 1:36:36 PM)
I am very drawn to your use of color sourced from the lighting, gels, etc.
– apart from what art direction contributes – to enhance mood or inspire
a feeling. In Manhaunter, the green reflected off the darkroom portal
as Francis Dollarhyde enters, suggests his strange nature. It is an image
I find haunting. In L.A.Confidential, the early morning tones sun
bathing Bud White and Lynn Bracken after they've made love for the first
time is another memorable image. Could you discuss how color inspires your
work?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:38:31 PM)
It's not an easy issue for me in the sense that it's very delicate thing to
introduce some color besides what is the contribution of the environment
you're shooting in, or for that matter, the art direction, costume design,
etc. It's delicate because every time you introduce a color you have to say
something important or the color is going to be heavy.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:39:57 PM)
On Manhunter we had this deep blue color that was underlining the romantic
relationship between the detective and his wife. So we shot the love scene
at the beginning of the movie in Robert Rauschenberg's house, and so I heavily
gelled with 2 layers of full blue all the windows. And outside the windows
we had the ocean. The relationship between the 2 was underlined by this cobalt
blue, a very romantic color to me. Michael Mann introduced me to the use of
green in that movie.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:40:36 PM)
Green to me has a very strong power in the sense that it is a color that for
some reason takes me back to my younger years. As if my childhood had a lot
of green stuff. Green shutters. Green toys. Green can be used in different
ways. It can have a dramatic energy.
Sort of upsetting kind of energy. And that's how we used it in Manhunter.
The finale of the picture there's some green light coming from the window.
There are some green gels on the windows. I like it when it's associated with
black. It has a strong and emotional value.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:41:46 PM)
In those days, it was a difficult color to reproduce on Eastman Kodak. So we
had to be careful that the color temperatures of every light was at the correct
level in order not to shift the green into blue or yellow.
Op_Ed (Oct 18, 2003 1:41:56 PM)
Would you talk about your use of negative space in The Insider and how
that contributed to the paranoia felt by Russell Crowe’s character and the
discomfort that helped express to the audience?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:42:34 PM)
Director Michael Mann is a director who brings filmmaking as close to a science
as I know of. Some of The Insider shots on Russell Crowe that belonged
to the picture where we wanted inner workings - were done on a Frasier lens.
And the camera was really close to the rim of the glasses from 3/4 behind
Russell Crowe's head and face. We were so close we could see a little of
his profile. His eye, and there was this empty space on the right.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:47:55 PM)
But I think if you consider Michael Mann's study of the use of camera in shots
throughout the movie, is the closest things I've seen to taking filmmaking
to a science level. Nothing is left to improvisation or chance. It all belongs
to the way he wants to tell the story with an image at that particular point.
That dictates the choice of long lenses. It has to do with the psychology
of the plan of the movie, throughout the movie.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:49:00 PM)
For instance, if you look at the scene in the infirmary in Last of the Mohicans,
the first time Daniel Day Lewis and Madeline Stowe meet, there's a series of
shots – their first exchange of looks – when you understand the two are falling
in love.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:49:25 PM)
I think it's a very high expression of framing and composition and having exactly
the right piece at the right moment. Some point, her face, when she looks
up and asks Daniel Day Lewis, “What are you looking at?” She's right in the
middle of the frame. You can barely see her forehead and hair. You lock into
her emotions. She cannot escape. And the audience is faced with this human
being and what she's thinking about. The audience cannot go anywhere else.
Gino (Oct 18, 2003 1:49:59 PM)
Are you and Brett Ratner going to use a digital intermediate process to finish After
the Sunset? And what format are you going to shoot in: anamorphic, Super
35 or 1.85:1, and why?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:50:53 PM)
Yes, we are going to use the digital intermediate. No doubt we had to overcome
some budgetary issues as the technique is relatively new, it is expensive,
and probably the studios do not understand yet the potential of simplifying
the time cut of shooting if you use that system.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:51:18 PM)
Basically, at least to start with, the advantage is like going to a very fine
- if you compare to still photography – it's like going to a very fine photography
printer as opposed to a one-hour photo. One-hour photo will deliver you with
quickly printed photos that all look the same. Or correcting problems that
you had during production with a better printer.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:52:10 PM)
Then the format will be Super 35 because the digital intermediate eliminates
the need of an optical enlargement to anamorphic. Recent movies that I saw
were extremely good technically through that process.
1900 (Oct 18, 2003 1:52:38 PM)
I read about your involvement in the Digital Cinema Initiative project. What
did you learn about digital reproduction from the project?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:53:44 PM)
Well, I am lucky that I am part of the technical committee at the ASC and it
so happens that that committee is a congregation of the best people in digital
cinema in town. So I've learned a number of things. And the digital cinema
initiative needed this footage to test projectors for the future, and test
any kind of digital cinema that's coming along and is being used now. So
we designed a group of cinematographers, including myself, we designed basically
the way to do some test material that really put the compression of a projector
system, the quality, color of production, sharpness, color depth.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:55:04 PM)
So in order to do that thoroughly, we had to test in every possible format.
So our basic camera was a Super 35, but we also had an anamorphic, and a
65mm.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:55:45 PM)
What happened later is the shoot was delayed for some reason, so Allen Daviau
and other colleagues did the actual shooting because I had to go back to
Italy. But what we did together, was to do actually create a scene, which
happened to be sort of a European wedding on Universal Studios' back lot.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:56:13 PM)
And we shot it exactly the same way, six times. In six typical lighting conditions.
One was a full daylight situation. Then we had a sunset situation. We had
a twilight situation. We had a night situation in which the lights were very
warm, into the yellow red. And then we had a night situation in which the
lights were very cold, into the blue-green. And then we had a rain scene.
So by doing these exactly the same way six different times, you can really
test in a typical filmmaking condition what is the response of the projector
to those different conditions.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:57:17 PM)
In trying to cover every possibility – typical movie problems or encounters
– you try to replicate that. The shoot was very successful and I think now
everyone is working feverishly transforming this to digital files and formats.
CamNoir (Oct 18, 2003 1:58:40 PM)
I heard that the retrospective they were planning in Palm Springs has been
delayed. Will it be rescheduled?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 1:59:56 PM)
Yes, it is being rescheduled by David Kaminsky and Fred Goodidge. I think we'll
try to do it in the spring. David Kaminsky was a promoter of this event,
and he said, they could probably only do retrospectives of retired cinematographers.
The nature of our profession is unpredictable. We don't know in January many
times what we will be doing in September. Sometimes these things happen,
but we'll try to schedule it for the Academy Awards, probably toward the
spring of next year.
Eric_the_AC (Oct 18, 2003 1:59:59 PM)
You have worked with some tremendously talented directors—what qualities do
you see in people that makes them successful directors?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:01:18 PM)
It's about storytelling. I think it's about the fascination – it s a complex
profession. I think it's mainly about the fascination and the pleasure of
telling stories with images of people, images of environments. You have to
be so thrilled by looking at human faces and so thrilled by looking at a
magic beautiful building or a magical beautiful landscape that you want to
tell about the thrill to other people. And there's a kind of sexiness that
belongs to shooting a picture. And if you feel the pleasure you can probably
transmit it to whoever's looking.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:02:18 PM)
I think a director needs a huge knowledge of literature, dramaturgy, visual
arts – all this humanistic knowledge and qualities. You have to have this
urge to tell a story to other people about what you are enjoying about these
things, to transmit these human feelings.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:03:10 PM)
I guess there's a common denominator. I know I never tried to be a director
because I love images. I like visual art, but I don't feel that urge of telling
human stories through faces of actors. I feel I'm very far from having the
knowledge that I would like to have of drama, storytelling, and literature
and so on.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:03:55 PM)
It also seems as if some directors were born directors. I've seen directors
so focused on what they do that they almost take the operation to a level
of transcendence. But there are many ways to approach this profession.
HB (Oct 18, 2003 2:03:58 PM)
I saw you at last year’s Lighting Workshop and I really enjoyed your presentation.
What’s the single most important thing a cinematographer needs to know in
order to master his craft?
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:05:04 PM)
There's a tendency in the U.S. to focus on technology. I think to master your
craft you have to exercise a very keen esthetic eye. And you have to exercise
your humanistic knowledge so you do the right choices and you know what doesn't
work and you know what to use and what to toss. And that will lead you to
find the proper language for the film you are shooting.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:05:32 PM)
To me, every film can be compared to a different language – Spanish, English,
Chinese. You need to find that language and to do that you need to expand
your culture as much as you can. Technology comes later. You only need it
to transfer all this material to the screen. But it's only a ferryboat, only
a transfer tool.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:06:02 PM)
What you really need to learn about are the people on the train. Technology
is the train, but you want to learn about the people on the train.
Dante Spinotti (Oct 18, 2003 2:07:24 PM)
Thanks for having me on this chat. If you want to email me care of the Guild
I'm happy to talk. Thanks for everyone for being here. And thanks to Bob
Fisher for asking many questions and for saving my ass, if I can be so vulgar,
on the issue of transporting films on airplanes and going through security
controls.
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